Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

[Syzygies]

n68276 n68277 My shipment came, to test "Clamp and Seal Sous Vide". It works exactly as expected, and I can recommend it. Casual sous vide cooks have long plunked a ziploc bag in water to drive out the air, then cooked the bag contents in a temperature-controlled water bath, which could simply be a large pot of water and a watchful eye. This works, although supermarket zip pouches aren't food-safe at cooking temperatures. SousVide Supreme sells heat-safe zip bags; if this makes you happy, stop reading and buy some. They call this the Archimedes principle after the ancient Greek scientist. They didn't invent this application to sous vide, although a web search suggests they coined the name. The next step up is an external clamp vacuum sealer (such as FoodSaver) which requires special textured bags which aren't food-safe at cooking temperatures either. Liquids are a persistent problem, and the machines work poorly with seals that often fail. SousVide Supreme also sells heat-safe external clamp vacuum sealer bags (same link). Professional kitchens use chamber vacuum sealers, costing $1,000 to $2,000 for a quality unit suitable for home use. Liquids per se are no longer a problem, but hot liquids remain a problem; they'll come to a boil at low pressures, gumming up the pump. So professional chefs up-end the usual sequence for braising meats, with the sear after the long slow cook, because the usual sequence simply isn't possible with their equipment. I've been experimenting with sous vide, using a FoodSaver vacuum sealer, and a $160 Sous Vide Magic temperature controller (think BBQ Guru) with a hot plate and stock pot water bath. In my other kitchen I have a $300 SousVide Supreme Demi, which also works well, although the fixed water bath size is a nuisance. I crave an $800 PolyScience Professional immersion circulator, as does everyone who heads down this rabbit hole. The trouble is, I also crave a chamber vacuum machine, only I don't want this huge, heavy, expensive object in my life if I can avoid it. And I can't decide which one is good enough for me. Oil pump? Digital controls? Those chamber machines cost a fortune, but their heat-safe bags cost 10 cents each. They'd be wonderful for freezing stock, you name it. Oh yeah, got to let the stock cool down. Hmm... On sleepless nights I kept thinking how I'd design a clamp, so I could close a chamber pouch under water, then seal it using a bag sealer. I could picture exactly the clamp, and I wondered how I could convince a manufacturer to make them. Then I was flipping through a King Arthur catalog, saw these flour bag clips. Figuring someone was making them for King Arthur, I Googled and found that Sorbent Systems (a source for oxygen absorbers) sells bag clips and heat sealers. (I could use my FoodSaver to make a seal, but the dedicated sealers make 5mm seals.) The rest of the story is completely anti-climatic. These clips work exactly as expected. One has a water bath handy if one is about to cook sous vide; remember to close the bags before the water gets hot! Dry, this method won't get the air out. Divers know that 99 feet deep is 4 atmospheres, so half a foot deep ain't much. However, with even a modest amount of added liquid (stock? olive oil? melted butter?) one can close a bag this way and get almost all of the air out. The impulse heat sealer just works, not much to say. (I have frequent words with my FoodSaver, so this is a good thing.) The standard clips will close an 8" pouch; the large clips will close a 12" pouch. I bought 8" clips, and a 12" sealer for good measure. I posted this here, despite its possibly wider interest, as anyone who just saved $2,000 on a chamber vacuum sealer is probably our kind of folks, and might want a look around. If I had to choose, I'd take a Komodo Kamado ceramic cooker in a heart beat, over a PolyScience circulator and the chamber vacuum sealer of my dreams. But why not have both?

[Syzygies]

Look Ma No Bath n66962 It turns out that with enough liquid, and some manual dexterity, there's no need for the water bath. Archimedes can rest in peace. Ever run a toothpaste tube against the side of the sink, to cleanly squeegee the remaining paste toward the front? One can hold a liquid-filled bag flat against one of these bag clips, and slide the clip till there're no air trapped, and close the clip. Seal, remove the clip, and done. This is similar to how one burps a ziploc bag, keeping one end open while working the air out. Only, with this clip it's easier, and after the seal, the bag is more secure. I can see putting up a dozen bags of stock this way to freeze, in the time it would take a chamber vacuum sealer to cycle through three bags.

[Saison]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide (The "Dead Greek Guy" Method))

Here's another take on a circulator.

http://freshmealssolutions.com/index.ph ... mid=100083

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide (The "Dead Greek Guy" Method))

Looks like a good deal for sealing bags.

I used a hot plate system for years with no bubbles. Natural convection seemed to do the trick. I moved the bags around a couple times during cooks.

I never had a problem with regular plastic bags, other than cost.

Health wise a plastic bag is a plastic bag.

I now buy bags at http://shop.vacuumsealersunlimited.com/ ... gs_c67.htm

Suggestions:

Steaks 1 bag each.

No veg's (found no improvement to justify the time)

Meat= MAX 3 inches thick (heat penetration control problem)

Steaks can be pre sous vide (Rare. Med, etc).. Put on hot grill (500F plus) browned on each side and served. (Grill time 1-2 min max) No limit to how many hot steaks you can serve at one time and every one just the way it was ordered.

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide (The "Dead Greek Guy" Method))

Health wise a plastic bag is a plastic bag.

This is a point of contention, and saying it doesn't make it so.

Only some plastics are determined food-safe at cooking temperatures, and the major chamber vacuum sealer bag manufacturers offer two lines, one approved as food-safe at cookiing temperatures.

If someone could thoughtfully explain to me what these specialists are thinking, they might be able to convince me to follow their lead in saving 2 cents per bag by not worrying about this. Otherwise, I'd call this another instance of Darwin stopping by to say hi. Friendly chap, but I'm pretty cautious around him.

This question can get political, for sure. I remember my 60's friends despising microwaves, and one could see "fear of plastic" in the same light. It's interesting that FoodSaver bags are routinely used at home to simmer meals, yet (in many locales) you couldn't use them in a restaurant. One could spin many a theory on this one.

For me this is moot. There's the faintest price difference between chamber bags designed for boiling, and not designed for boiling. I'm certainly not going to maintain two supplies. These bags in use are staggeringly more beautiful than any Ziploc or FoodSaver bag I've ever seen, in a clean, minimalist way. They look more like glass, while supermarket bags look more like jello. Sort of like the two grades of Cambro; the hard plastic rated for boiling is clear, while the cheap stuff is cloudy. I want my freezer filled with seven kinds of stock in one cup servings, in these bags. Fort Knox.

I'm thrilled that I can seal these bags so trivially, without a chamber vacuum machine, or even a water bath. These bag clamps rock.

[Syzygies]

CLIP-it Bag Clamps

Just to summarize, this thread is about using oxygen absorber bag clips to assist in sealing chamber vacuum sealer bags, without a chamber vacuum sealer machine. They're a game changer.

[Syzygies]

Rolling Pin and Counter Edge A rolling pin and counter edge may be the easiest way to ready a bag for clipping. Keeps the bag very flat, with plenty of opportunity to tease all the air out.

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

Professional kitchens use chamber vacuum sealers, costing $1,000 to $2,000 for a quality unit suitable for home use. Liquids per se are no longer a problem, but hot liquids remain a problem; they'll come to a boil at low pressures, gumming up the pump. So professional chefs up-end the usual sequence for braising meats, with the sear after the long slow cook, because the usual sequence simply isn't possible with their equipment.

1) Vacmaster VP112C Vacmaster (Not 1000-$2000)

2) Chamber vac machines do not gum up.

3) How do you sear while doing sous vide. What is the usual sequence??? (There are only two ways. Before or after sous vide.)

Those chamber machines cost a fortune, but their heat-safe bags cost 10 cents each. They'd be wonderful for freezing stock, you name it. Oh yeah, got to let the stock cool down. Hmm...

Most of the commercial bags I use (under 10in) cost 3-5 cents each.

What stock?

1) Cooking in an open pot IMHO is not sous vide.

2) KK and sous vide cooking methods have nothing to do with each other except one can be used to brown the other. They are entirely different methods of cooking.

Being that I own and use:

1) KOMODO-KAMADO

2) Ary VacMaster Chamber Vacuum Sealer with Oil Pump - Stainless Steel VP215C

3) Polyscience Sous Vide Professional Immersion Circulator

I feel qualified to offer information facts from my experiences.

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

2) Chamber vac machines do not gum up.

In Under Pressure, p. 29, Thomas Keller writes

It's also essential to keep in mind that the food must be cold when it's packed and sealed. This is far more important than most people realize. In fact, Bruno Goussault says that when he trains chefs in sous vide technique, the number one error they make is not chilling the food properly before it's sealed. The problem is related to the fact that in very low pressure situations, water vaporizes at a lower temperature. To demonstrate, Goussault will put one pan of cold water and another one of warm water in a vacuum chamber. When the chamber is locked and the vacuum turned on, the warm water will begin to boil vigourously almost immediately, as the water vaporizes. When warm food is put in a vacuum, the same vaporization will happen, drying it out and affecting its texture.

A chamber machine salesman aware of the usual repair issues put it differently: Your pump isn't designed to be used as a still. I sure don't want these vapors going through the pump oil, it can't be good, and I'm told it's not good.

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

1) Vacmaster VP112C Vacmaster (Not 1000-$2000)

...

Being that I own and use:

2) Ary VacMaster Chamber Vacuum Sealer with Oil Pump - Stainless Steel VP215C

It was exactly your comments on this forum that lead me to conclude that the Ary VP215C ($1,100 and up) was the most affordable chamber machine I'd actually want to own. Better engineering, oil pump... Some of the reviews on the $800 Ary VP112C scare me. There are reasons you went for the VP215C, and they're good reasons others should consider.

I would have bought one by now, but for the analog controls. To reach an intermediate pressure, one watches a gauge, and at the right moment, hits stop. An oddly familiar protocol I feel I've practiced in various ways my whole life. I don't remember it always going well!

In restaurants, part of sous vide cooking involves specifying a precise level of vacuum. The $1,900 minipack MVS 31X comes with digital controls, and reviews well. So I'm stuck.

Meanwhile, I can live with the liquid restriction of "clamp and seal", if it saves me counter space and a couple of grand. What, I want to spend $1,900 because Thomas Keller says I sometimes want a medium vacuum? Why would I want to spend anything on a chamber machine, if "clamp and seal" is this easy?

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

Most of the commercial bags I use (under 10in) cost 3-5 cents each.

For one comparison between boilable and non-boilable bags,

8 x 12 Chamber Vacuum Sealer Boilable Bags - Case of 1000

$78.98 (7.9 cents/bag)

8 x 12 Chamber Vacuum Sealer Bags - Case of 1000

$54.23 (5.4 cents/bag)

I was minimizing total expenditure for what looks like an indefinite supply of two sizes, and ordered boilable bags from SousVide Supreme:

Chamber Vacuum Pouches 8x10 (500 pouches)

$49.95 (10 cents/bag)

Chamber Vacuum Pouches 6x12 (500 pouches)

$49.95 (10 cents/bag)

For comparison,

Ziploc Quart Freezer Bags - 54-Count

$7.64 (14.1 cents/bag)

I take your advice with great respect. I am curious, however. In the interest of full disclosure, do you have a horse in this race? Are you sitting on a hoard of chamber vacuum bags, that I'm saying aren't boilable?

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

I think you have misstated some facts.

Lower end (price) chamber vac machines tend to have bars that seal 10 inch and under bags which are more than adequate for home use. In addition the bags I use are 3 mil bags.

For bag price check here.

http://www.qualitymatters.com/ProductDe ... click=2010

I did not see your response to searing.

It is true boiling can be done sous vide. (Not sure why a home cook would do it. But to each his on.)

Sous vide seems best used for low and slow and mostly for meats.

Tough beef becomes fork tender when done sous vide low and slow.

It also cannot be beat for large group steak output. (Coupled with KK hot searing)

I don't understand your persistence in miss quoting the need for high priced bags. Why would a home cook use sous vide to boil food?

Have you used any of this equipment?

By the way what is the definition of sous vide?

Sous vide is a great system especially for the home cook. There is much information on the web and I suggest potential buyers do there research as you did for the KK. Apply all the same research digging. Buy the best or as some. Wish you had.

I use my vac for sous vide, family heirlooms, freezer food protection, ice pouches and a host of other things. (The oil pump machine has a much longer life span).

The thing that justifies home use of sous vide is IT MAKES TOUGH MEAT FORK TENDER!!!

In the beginning I bought the Red Neck set up. My advise is DON"T DO IT! (Wasted that money)

As with the KOMODO-KAMADO, buy the best up front, or have a bad case of "Wish I had". (Don't waste that money)

My sous vide set up will be around long after I'm gone That with the bag savings says it all.

Oh I almost forgot, I don't have a horse but I do have a few cows.

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

I did not see your response to searing.

I thought I was clear the first time. If one obeys the rule not to vacuum pack hot food, then one must sear afterwards. However, classic braise technique is to sear beforehand, which is possible if one can close the bag without a vacuum.

I know the convention in sous vide is to sear afterwards. It's just a convention, an adaptation to the limitations of the prevailing equipment.

This is a standard issue, known to experts, and I'm by no means the first to realize that avoiding the vacuum avoids this issue. See

Low-Temperature Cooking Without a Vacuum

Add your food item. A significant advantage of Ziplocs over vacuum bags is that the food can be added to the bag hot. All vacuum bagging procedures require your food to be cold (more on that in the upcoming vacuum section of the primer). If you are searing meat and adding it directly to the Ziploc bag make sure the surface of the meat is below 100?C (212?F) or the bag will melt. Be especially careful to not touch the bag with a hot set of tongs or spatula.

[Syzygies]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

I don't understand your persistence in miss quoting the need for high priced bags. Why would a home cook use sous vide to boil food?

The word "boil" is an oversimplification, but an aid to shopping. I've never simmered anything over 195 F using sous vide techniques, and usually in the range 140 F to 160 F. If a bag can't be boiled, and they're not telling me where the limit is, then I'm assuming the limit is below a temperature I might use.

For comparison purposes, Cambro tells me their temperature ranges:

http://cool.cambro.com/CamSquares_Poly_ ... orage.ashx

CamSquares - Poly

Withstands temperatures from -40°F to 160°F (-40°C - 70°C).

http://cool.cambro.com/CamSquares_Camwe ... orage.ashx

CamSquares - Camwear

Withstands temperatures from -40°F to 210°F (-40°C - 99°C).

I certainly cook above 160 F, so I buy the more expensive Cambros, to be safe. These are guidelines, and even below 160 F I've bought a better margin of error.

A helpful question to ask yourself might be: Why do the vacuum pouch manufacturers sell two grades of bags?

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

owned since 1998 by Volkswagen AG, Bentley Motors is dedicated to making responsive and powerful Grand Tourers with the stamina to cross continents at pace, and drive in refined comfort and style.

For me 3 mil bags work just great with a much cheaper cost factor.

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

For me this says it all.

http://www.sousvidesupreme.com/en-us/so ... ral/Basics

What are the basic steps to cooking sous vide?

Vacuum seal food in food-grade plastic pouches certified as suitable for cooking.

Place the pouch in a water bath that has been brought to the designated cooking temperature.

Let food cook for at least the time specified in the recipe. Longer is generally fine.

Remove and serve! Before serving, meat dishes may benefit from searing in a hot pan, on a grill, or with a kitchen torch briefly to create a browned surface and impart a caramelized flavor.

This is from the horses mouth.

[bryan]

Re: Clamp and Seal Sous Vide

http://www.cuisinetechnology.com/techni ... vide.php#2

POLYSCIENCE SOUS VIDE PROFESSIONAL

Basic rules that apply to sous vide:

SEALING

• Vacuum sealing food DOES NOT make it impervious to bacterial growth; in fact, under certain conditions some bacteria actually thrive in the anaerobic (oxygen-free) environment created by vacuum sealing.

• Food to be cooked sous vide must be cold when its sealed and then either cooked immediately or stored in the refrigerator until ready to cook.

• Always use high-quality ingredients from a reputable source. Food must always be refrigerated at safe temperatures and should, when possible, be seared before sealing to eliminate surface bacteria.

STORING

• After food is cooked sous vide, it must either be served immediately or quickly and thoroughly chilled in an ice bath within four hours of entering its danger-zone temperature and then held very cold.

• If you're not going to use food within 3 days, freeze it.