Sourdough Starter (Make Your Own)

[LeadDog]

One of the reasons I bought a KK was so that I could cook bread, and pizza in it. I had never baked bread or pizza before getting my KK so I had a bit of learning and trial and error to go through. I kept my eye out for sourdough bread recipes since I really like how it tastes. Finally one day I just Googled "Sourdough Stater" and started reading how to make my own starter. I was really curious about it because we use yeast in the wine industry. Here is what I did to make my own stater. This information is gathered from a number of websites.

I got a large plastic container with a lid to keep my starter in. Make sure that it is about twice as large as the amount of stater you want to have on hand to use when you are done.

For the first week I put two tablespoons of water and two tablespoons of whole wheat flour into the container once a day and mixed it up . You can do it twice a day also. I put the container on top the refrigerator because it stays nice and warm up there. The next week I upped the amount of flour and water that I put in to half a cup everyday. By the middle of the second week I made a batch of sourdough biscuits. The biscuits tasted really good so I figured the starter was going in the right direction. I put the starter in the refrigerator after two weeks since I thought that I had it to the point where I wanted it.

This weekend I have made pancakes from it twice and they were great and I just pulled some sourdough bread out of the KK. I'll post recipes pictures and tasting notes later but it does smell great.

Several notes:

I just added to my starter every day. There are some starter recipes that take half of the starter and throw it away everyday. That seemed wasteful to me. The amount of flour to water that you add is about 50/50 but I did notice after a while the starter got really thin so I would just add flour and thicken the mix up a bit.

Use whole wheat or flax flour to make your starter with. These flours are full of the yeast and bacteria that the starter is actually going end up being made of.

The starter does go through some changes at the beginning of its development. The water and flour are basically pH neutral when you mix them together at the start. There are some bacteria in the flour whose by product of fermentation is acid. By the end of the first week the pH of the starter is of an acid pH that kills off all the bacteria and yeast that are not part of good sourdough starter. This is where the starter gets its name from because of the acid environment it is sour therefore it is called sourdough. The starter can be used to make sweet items too and breads from it don't necessarily taste sour either.

The starter will have water that will float to the top of it after it sits a while and is called "hootch". Some people pour this off but I just mixed it back into the starter. I initially wasn't interested in having a starter because I thought you had to feed it everyday. I just didn't have that kind of commitment to keeping it alive but then I found out that you can refrigerate it. There are people that claim it can stay in the fridge for up to a month before it needs to be fed again.

When every you take some starter from the container you need to replace it with some flour and water. I leave it out and let it warm up. This helps get the yeast active and spread out through the newly added flour. There are some recipes that calls for you to put back into the starter from the flour mix that you are making and that does the same thing too.

Last interesting bit of information that I read about is this is how people made bread before the advent of yeast that you can go to the store and buy. The bread making sites say the most expensive item in making bread is the yeast and now you know how to get around having to buy that.

[LeadDog]

I found the webpage with the simple method for making starter. This the the method I basically followed to make mine.

http://home.teleport.com/~packham/sourdo.htm

In a wide-mouthed plastic or glass container make a small amount of batter using two tablespoons of whole wheat flour and about one and a half tablespoons of warm water. Use bottled water if your tap water is heavily chlorinated. Cover the container loosely and let it sit at room temperature (65 - 75 F) for 24 hours. The next day, stir in more flour and water in the same amounts as before, cover it and let it sit again. Do the same thing for a total of six or seven days. After the third day you should see tiny bubbles on the surface, which indicate that a yeast is developing and producing gas. After the third day you may use all-purpose flour if you wish. At the end of six or seven days you should have about a cup and a half of starter, and you can transfer it to a permanent container and refrigerate it. If you want to store a larger quantity, simply add sufficient flour and water to make the amount you want. On day seven you will have enough starter to bake a loaf of bread with enough left over to keep feeding for next time. Just remember not to use it all, or you will have to start over!

[Curly]

preciate that LD

[rbv]

Sourdough starter

I'm always eager to hear others' experiences with bread (esp. sourdough) or pizza on the KK. I haven't tried sourdough there yet (still waiting for Dennis to make the new stone available). I've experimented with various methods of getting a starter in the past with various amounts of success. The best luck I've had is with the "San Francisco" starter from Sourdoughs International. I've managed to keep it going for several years with practically no attention. The book, available at the website, is the best explanation of sourdough use I've come across. His description of how to re-activate an ignored starter is easy to do and works perfectly for me every time. http://www.sourdo.com/ Once I get the new (bigger) refrigerator, I'm anxious to try some of the other starters he has available.

[LeadDog]

Yes the sourdo.com is one that I have read a bunch, maybe I will get the book. I see Firemonkey posted about sourdough also. It sounds like he made his starter using the same method that I did. I have been thinking about planting wheat next year so that I can harvest it. This way I can get some real indigenous yeast from which to make a starter from. The starter would taste different according to the local yeasts that we have running around in the wild here.

I'm also trying to make some bread that is sour and I have made a large portion of starter and fermented it for two days. Then I added flour to it to make my dough. The dough was so sour smelling that it attracted fruitflys. I think I might have a great tasting loaf of bread when I'm done.

[rbv]

Similar to what you're trying

The book "The Bread Builders" (http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Builders-Hearth-Loaves-Masonry/dp/1890132055/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-0818797-2395962?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176084175&sr=8-1), not only provides details on building your own wood-fired oven to bake bread, it also discusses baking bread. I don't have it with me (I'm on vacation), but I believe they explain a bread called "desem", where the starter is initiated by forming a moist ball of flour and then sticking it into a bin of flour to attract local organisms. Can't recall all of the details, and I apologize if I have them wrong, but if you're interested let me know and I'll get back to you. Good luck!

[LeadDog]

I saw a book on Amazon last night that was similar to that one. It was about building an earth oven and baking bread. We have a KK so I don't think I'll go through all of the trouble to make an earth oven. I did find this book interesting and will most likely buy it. http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Bakers-Appr ... f_rd_i=ybh The book from Sourdoughs International did get some bad reviews at Amazon so I'll put getting that one on the back burner.

There is also a way of making starter from grapes. I might just do that and see what kind of flavors I get from that starter. Right now it would be a lot easier to do than planting and harvesting wheat.

[rbv]

Peter Reinhart's Book

I have another of Reinhart's books ("Brother Juniper"). It's a great book. Many wonderful recipes and insights. In addition, his "American Pie" book has received great reviews, so that's my next purchase. I've heard lot of good things about the book you're getting also. Hope you'll keep us up to date on your progress. Originally, I'd planned on building a wood-fired oven, but then came across ceramic cookers and realized that for the same money, I could have a multi-functional device to handle bbq, baking, grilling, smoking, and everything else I might decide to try. So, the wood-fired oven plans have been discarded. But, one half of the Alan Scott book was about baking bread. His co-author is a physician, I believe; and, describes alot of what's going on in the bread-making process. Lots of great information. Good luck with the natural leavening process!

[GSWHoops]

We have the Bread Baker's Apprentice and American Pie. We've learned a lot from both of them. The next book I'm getting is this one. I've been wanting to try sourdough for a while now, but haven't had the time. Hopefully, we'll have more time once summer rolls around. I've been doing the No Knead Bread a bunch though and the crust is much better than any of my other bread attempts. But I haven't seen anyone successfully use sourdough starter in a No Knead bread. Anyone try this?

[Sanny]

American Pie was great. Brother Juniper was ok. No Need to Knead is another interesting one, purporting to offer homemade Italian breads in 90 minutes.

The Bread Bible will just make you nutty. A basic bread of the sort I've made for years, took TWO DAYS in that book. TWO DAYS!! Lots of fermenting and rising and punching and resting and more rising. And it was no better than the bread in a day that my grandma taught me. There are times that the long ferment is good, but this was just silly. Every bread took a poolish or sponge or pre-ferment. Feh.

A long section on sourdough starter, though, so maybe worth a visit to the library to look at it, if you cannot find what you want elsewhere. I'm not so fond of the sourness of a sourdough. I like a ferment, but not so sour.

King Arthur Flour has a sourdough starter that's not dried. http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/det ... 89&id=1522 There are also dried ones there.

[ThreeDJ16]

American Pie was great.

Eh, I skipped the book and watched the movie instead. Though I do not think the things they did to pie can be mentioned in this forum.

-=Jasen=-

[LeadDog]

I think I'm going to buy Bread Baker's Apprentice and I found this one today Bread: A Baker's Book of Techniques and Recipes. That happens to be the book GSWHoops is going to buy next. I tried the No Knead bread but can't remember what happened so I must not of been impressed. I think I could do it with the sourdough starter I currently have as it seems to be a much better yeast than the dry bread yeast I was buying at the store.

The books are at Overstocked.com and of course cheaper than Amazon.

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi ... prod895220

http://www.overstock.com/cgi-bin/d2.cgi ... d_id=74500

[rbv]

No Knead Sourdough

I've been using the No-Knead technique with sourdough starter since I read the NYT article. It's incredibly easy, and as you said, I get the best crust I've ever had. I'm looking forward to trying it on the KK.

I've never read "The Bread Bible", but Sanny's criticism is one I've read about Reinhart. In "Brother Juniper", everything is SLOOOOOWWWWW. As Sanny mentioned, my grandmother made bread start to finish (many loaves) in one day. The nice thing about the No-Knead technique is that it's more less a set it and forget it kind of thing. I did notice that the Sourdough International website has a new recipe posted for bread using the No-Knead technique; but, I haven't looked it over yet to see how it compares to how I've been doing it.

[GSWHoops]

rbv, can you tell me how you've done the no knead technique with your sourdough starter? Thanks!

[rbv]

Here ya go...

Sure, GSW. Here's how I do the No-Knead recipe, modified from the NYT article. I use 4 1/2 cups of King Arthur bread flour, 1 1/2 teasp. kosher salt, 1 cup of my sourdough starter (it's about the consistency of a THICK pancake batter), and 1 1/2 cups of water. As I don't consistently bake, I usually re-activate my starter a few days ahead of time, to get it perking along pretty good. I mix everything in a large plastic bowl, using a large wooden or metal spoon. I cover the bowl with plastic wrap and place it in my proofing box and proof at approx. 70 degrees F. I usually let it go overnight or even 18 hours...it doesn't seem to matter, but I want the mix really bubbly. The mix is alot wetter than anything I ever made before. It's stiffer than a batter, but way too wet to knead. When it's ready for the next step, I flour my hands up really well and punch it down and more or less work it a bit. I then spray a smaller plastic bowl (approx. the same size as the dutch oven I'll bake the bread in...perhaps 8 - 10 inches in diameter and 6 - 8 inches tall) with Pam or a no-name equivalent. I give the dough a final attempt at shaping it, but it's really not something I can "work" and flop it into the bowl. Back into the proofing box until it's doubled in size. This stage usually takes somewhere between 3-5 hours, and sometimes I just lose patience and decide it's "good enough". While the dough is doubling, I place the dutch oven and lit into the oven and heat the oven to 450 degrees F. When the dough is ready, I carefully remove the dutch oven from the oven, remove the lid, and kind of flop/pour the dough into the hot dutch oven. The dough will actually sizzle as it hits the hot cast iron. Put the lid back on and everything back into the oven for 30 minutes. After 30 min. remove the lid, and bake for 15-30 min. longer. A few notes: When I put the dough into the dutch oven, I usually give it a shake or two to kind of settle it into place. If the dough has really risen well, it sometimes bumps into the lid of the dutch oven with the oven spring, and compresses the dough. So, when I think of it, I cut back on the flour a bit, or if I've forgotten that, I try and remember to remove the lid of the dutch oven a bit earlier. I have to admit that even if I forget everything and the dough bumps into the lid, the loaf still tastes great, it just doesn't have quite the magazine cover appearance of an artisan loaf. As I mentioned in an earlier post, I use the San Francisco sourdough from Sourdough International and have excellent luck with it. It's a nicely sour dough, which is what I enjoy. And, have to say that the crust is delicious, and the bread NEVER seems to go bad...takes forever to dry out, and I've never had a loaf go moldy. Any questions I haven't covered, please let me know and I'll try and explain my "technique" better. My grandmother used to make this one-pan cake, she called Wacky Cake. This bread reminds of that...it seems way too easy and goes against almost every bit of bread-making expertise I've ever read. No true kneading...no "window-pane" effect in the flour...it's more Easy-Bake Oven than I could have imagined.

[LeadDog]

I bought both of the books and have read both of them. I like them both and if you can only buy one either one will be fine. I currently am using the formulas from "Bread" because they are based on the kind of sourdough starter that I have. I do want to use the formulas in "Bread Baker's Apprentice" but will when I have time to figure out how to change to his kind of sourdough stater. I personally liked "Bread Baker's Apprentice" just a little bit better but for personal reasons not for technique. Here is my latest batch of Sourdough Bread.

The last batch got very good comments from people and I have a feeling these loaves will even be better. There is still a lot for me to learn but now I don't feel like I'm baking bread totally blind.

[Bobkat]

Can I ask how you set up the kk to do bread? tks

[Firemonkey]

the thread is old, so the pics have expired, but here is my setup (from my POSK)

http://www.komodokamado.com/forum/viewt ... =sourdough

basic jist: indirect, with either a thick stone, or one stone and a pizza stone as i describe.

check out the bread section...there are lots of good pics in there.

[Bobkat]

Thanks Monkey,

so when you said "I used my pizza rig to bake it. That means that I have the K supplied deflector on the main grill, some 1" spacers, and a regular pizza stone on top of the 1" spacers. I heated the K up to about 425 dome, and baked it for about 20-25 minutes. Nice crewy crust (I misted it for the firmer texture). "...you are saying the k supplied deflector is not down low where it usually sits but right up on the main (main grill = the one almost level with where the lid meets the body when closed) *then* put spacers on it and lay another stone right on top of that. So in the end there's nothing between that main grill and the fire, everything else rides on top?

Sorry to sound dense on this, but my kk had a bum grill (literally in pieces) when it arrived, they are not labeled so I'm left to kinda guess which is which (should be 3 grills with the kk right?). Moreover, I thought I saw what I have been using as the lower grill in mine (rest it on the fire box rim) so I can lay the heat deflector on top of it, right down on the fire. I think I saw in your babyback post, that same 'lower' grill riding on top of what I think is the main grill. Kinda my config. upside down. Maybe this helps you to understand a little confusion over here.

[Firemonkey]

Sorry, I realized the pictures (once they appeared) didnt show the setup. Here is the pizza setup with pics:

viewtopic.php?t=353

The grill that sits on the firebox is actually a dual purpose upper and sear grill. If you stand it on the long legs (handles when you have it down on the lump basket) then it sits up high as an upper grill. You can see me using it in this placement on my baby backs thread.

There are 2 ridges in the KK that hold racks, one commonly called the lower, the other is the main grill. They only fit in one position...that is, the main grill wont fit down into the spot for the lower grill. The lower is not big enough to rest in the position of the main grill.

If your main grill is in pieces, you can get by just fine by using the lower grill, if you have it, and then placing the upper grill on top of it. You will only be about even with the base of the grill, but that will be fine. I would probably try a stacked stone like I show in the pizza thread the first time. Its been my experience that the thinner stones tend to burn the crust if you dont insulate them from the heat source.

To set up for indirect, just place the KK stone directly on the lump basket handles...no grill needed to hold it. When I do indirect with meat, I sometimes use the lower grill to hold a drip pan, but unless the cook is really greasy (like pork shoulders) I dont bother with the pan.

I should mention that when I do bread, I dont really put the stone on the basket handles, but instead use it to make a double stone as is shown in the pizza thread. This was the only way I could get good results on my POSK, and hence, its just the way I have always done it. I havent really done bread on the KK yet, but I did do pizza using the same setup, and had good results.