Fully Open Top Damper Cooking Method (experiental)

[mguerra]

Unfortunately I could not add a new first post to this thread to clear up it's purpose. So I had to edit this one...sorry. Anyway, this thread is just an experiment on KK cooking leaving the top damper fully open and controlling only with bottom daisy wheel. The initial purpose was to reduce the chicken fat smoke exposure time when cooking chicken direct on the KK as some people found the flavor offensive. But what we also ended up finding is that the flavor/texture produced was closer to pit cooking chicken. So anyway, hotter/faster and lower/slower methods are both described in this thread. Just remember your top damper is fully open with this method and need to be monitored more closely as temps could run away quickly if not careful.

-=J

Slu,

I have not had it overflow with grease, in fact, the grease usually smokes off after it drips.

There are some folks here who think the chicken grease hits the fire, smokes off and yields an off taste. So the point of the grease catcher is to prevent that. The challenge then is to design a rig to catch the grease and prevent it burning or smoking.

For myself, I don't worry about it.

[Syzygies]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

There are some folks here who think the chicken grease hits the fire' date=' smokes off and yields an off taste.[/quote']

I may have said this, but I'm in the middle here. The effect is a matter of degree. I cringe when I smell this happening like crazy on a Weber (and a Weber can be a great tool, just not used this way) but like Michael, I don't use a drip tray grilling chicken on my KK. I manage to get just a bit of flare up, if the fire is established and the KK walls heat soaked, and I love how the chicken comes out.

I once cooked chicken over a commercial catering charcoal grill, for a party away from my KK. One of those rectangular tables with an adjustable grill height. It was supposed to be for the kids who wouldn't eat steak, but it was the hit of the party. I avoided flareups, kept tending the pieces and my beers.

One doesn't need a rotisserie with the KK, but a rotisserie tastes different. Similarly, this chicken tasted different from anything on a KK or a Weber, I wish I could figure out how to repeat it. It also reminded me of grilled chicken in rural Thailand.

When "they" (in the Smothers Brothers sense) tried moving tomatoes from cans to plastic, consumers rejected the change at first. They associated the taste of the can with tomatoes. I'd put burned fat in this category. Not necessarily bad, an choice one might miss.

...Or replace with something better. Part of what makes tandoori chicken sing is the burning ghee.

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

There are some folks here who think the chicken grease hits the fire' date=' smokes off and yields an off taste.[/quote']

I may have said this, but I'm in the middle here. The effect is a matter of degree. I cringe when I smell this happening like crazy on a Weber (and a Weber can be a great tool, just not used this way) but like Michael, I don't use a drip tray grilling chicken on my KK. I manage to get just a bit of flare up, if the fire is established and the KK walls heat soaked, and I love how the chicken comes out.

I once cooked chicken over a commercial catering charcoal grill, for a party away from my KK. One of those rectangular tables with an adjustable grill height. It was supposed to be for the kids who wouldn't eat steak, but it was the hit of the party. I avoided flareups, kept tending the pieces and my beers.

One doesn't need a rotisserie with the KK, but a rotisserie tastes different. Similarly, this chicken tasted different from anything on a KK or a Weber, I wish I could figure out how to repeat it. It also reminded me of grilled chicken in rural Thailand.

When "they" (in the Smothers Brothers sense) tried moving tomatoes from cans to plastic, consumers rejected the change at first. They associated the taste of the can with tomatoes. I'd put burned fat in this category. Not necessarily bad, an choice one might miss.

...Or replace with something better. Part of what makes tandoori chicken sing is the burning ghee.

Wondering if the difference comes from the open verse closed lid design. Some people maybe more sensitive to the flavor and the fact it hangs around the meat longer with a closed lid causes it to be stronger. I never worry about it, as that is how chicken has always been cooked around here. Most BBQ joints still using a pit and that serve chicken, are cooking it directly over the coals and fat hitting the coals. It contributes to what makes it taste so good. But with it open, the smoke doesn't hang around it long, nor is it confined to a tight camber with the food.

FYI, what a lot of people on the forum have learned, is cooking poultry using the sear grill as a upper grill and cooking high in the dome, yields very consistent, even cooked chicken. I have a rotis too, but like it cooked on the upper grill better, with no deflectors or pans, just direct. At that height from the coals, it is pretty darn even or at worst turning once or twice during a cook. I cooked thighs for chicken fajitas last night that way....fantastic. Actually had to fight with my wife over the skin I pulled off before chopping.....super crispy and so bad for you! I use lower temps till desired doneness (300), then raise to 400 for the finish.

-=J

[johnnyboy]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

Good point DJ!! about closed lid versus open lid. I think you hit the nail on the head so to speak. I'm one of those who detects off taste (not only chicken), and post it; but I'm so much a closed lid cooker I never even think about results being different from cooking with the lid open.

Now that I'm thinking about it; I've been to many parties where we grilled chicken over open pits, and never tasted that off taste.

[mguerra]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

The open lid cook would definitely yield less smoke and or "off" flavor, but you would have big fiery flare-ups. Of course the main grill is so high above the fire it might not be a problem. Somebody try it, and report. Or I might.

[Firemonkey]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

The open lid cook would definitely yield less smoke and or "off" flavor' date=' but you would have big fiery flare-ups. Of course the main grill is so high above the fire it might not be a problem. Somebody try it, and report. Or I might.[/quote']

Before you try that, you might want to think twice. The handle area gets scorching hot quickly, and will surprise you when you go to close it . Also, consider the following advice from Dennis:

Komodos are NOT designed to run at high grilling temps for long periods of time with the top open.. best to keep the lid closed as much as possible.

The full post of that quote is HERE.

[johnnyboy]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

The open lid cook would definitely yield less smoke and or "off" flavor' date=' but you would have big fiery flare-ups. [/quote']

Doc, there's definitely a lot of flippin' and rotatin' going on with the meat to keep it out of the fire!!!

The open grills I'm referring to we use at the resort are those 24" X 60" flat type grills; they don't have a lid.

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

Just for clarification......I was in no way suggesting that folks use the KK with the lid open for cooking chicken. That would burn up some charcoal. Especially since we use natural lump that basically burns at temps based on the amount of oxygen we supply to it (verses briquettes which tend to burn at lower temps regardless). Was just pointing out the possible difference in flavor.

In the next paragraph, the KK used is a very first production GenII without the new elastopolymer grout/adhesive or silicone gaskets. It would probably be a bad idea to do this with a newer KK longer than a couple minutes. Even in my older KK, I don't do this more than a few minutes.

With that being said, I actually cook all the time with the lid open. But not for long periods of time (and yes the handle will burn the crap out of you). Usually just long enough for a steak or pork chop on the sear grill. Also, it might surprise you how well you can control the flame on an open KK. With lower damper wide open pulled out....of course raging inferno. Damper pushed all the way in, but open daisy wheel, slightly less hell like. Start closing that daisy wheel and you can actually calm the fire down to very brightly glowing coals, but no flame except when fat drips. With the lid open, flare up are going to happen. Anyway, this was just FYI.

-=J

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

Was just thinking about the lid situation some more and have a possible method someone can try out (I can't get around to it for little while). I am thinking that you maybe able to get enough control over your fire with just the bottom damper that you could leave the top damper all the way open (thus reducing the smoke stagnating around the chicken)? I am guessing this maybe possible for higher temp cooking chicken only, obviously low temps would not be very maintainable like this. Maybe get a proper fire going and then try opening top damper fully and completely choke off bottom damper, if the temps fall, then ever so slightly open the bottom damper. I would start with it closed as it is harder to lower temps than raise them. I hate to say it, but briquettes may lend itself to this situation better than lump.

Also, my apologies to Madmedik for us completely going off course to his topic. I will split this topic off tonight.....suggestions to a good split point a welcome.

-=J

[Firemonkey]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

I recall someone doing some temp/airflow testing like that a while back. I think they confirmed what you suggest.

Now, finding the discussion again might take longer than just going outside and trying it!

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

I recall someone doing some temp/airflow testing like that a while back. I think they confirmed what you suggest.

Now, finding the discussion again might take longer than just going outside and trying it!

Now that you mention it, I do remember something like that. Wasn't that Fetz doing it? Never really had any reason to try it, honestly still don't since I like the chicken fat smoke...hehe. But never a bad thing to have another cooking method in your arsenal.

-=J

[Firemonkey]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

I like the direct grilled chicken taste, but the burning chicken grease is way too sooty in the closed grill for me. I have done whole chickens on the top rack, indirect, and let everything drip down on the stone a couple of times. I must not have liked it because I still use a small (like 5X7") drip pan centered under the chicken. This catches most of the grease, but lets the right amount fall around it to get some flavor too. Letting it all drip it was either too messy on the stone, or it didn't taste good - I have no idea which - I just know I dont do it anymore.

I am actually cooking a chicken tonight. I might give it a try. I planned on spatch-cocking and doing it direct on the upper grate anyway.

[johnnyboy]

Re: First Rotisserie Cook: Very nice

I recall someone doing some temp/airflow testing like that a while back. I think they confirmed what you suggest.

Now, finding the discussion again might take longer than just going outside and trying it!

Now that you mention it, I do remember something like that. Wasn't that Fetz doing it? Never really had any reason to try it, honestly still don't since I like the chicken fat smoke...hehe. But never a bad thing to have another cooking method in your arsenal.

-=J

I remember that discussion too!! If my memory serves me. It was proven that you could shut down a KK by closing only one of the vents. What I can't remember is if it was the top vent or bottom vent. What that discussion suggests is this: if you can shut down a KK down by closing only one vent then you should also be able to control it.

Ring any bells?

[Firemonkey]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

YEAH! That was the discussion!

Since you confirmed that fetz was involved, it wasnt too difficult to find:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2551&p=24688&hilit=air#p24688

But they were shutting down the grill with only the top, I am going to try my chicken tonight on the top rack, direct, using only the top vent once everything gets properly burning.

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

Sounds reasonable then, as they wanted more smoke, so they shut the top down to hold more in. We are looking for less smoke (chicken fat smoke), so leaving the top open and closing bottom should facilitate that. I would definately start shutting the bottom damper before you get completely up to temp, as my guess would be a continual rise well after you shut. I am hoping this works out, as this could be a method to achieve a more pit style cooking (which taste drastically different than sealed grill cooking). If you remember my heat deflector experiments (holes), that was the results desired. Though I am wondering if we need to change the type of charcoal we're cooking with to really implement this approach? Jeez, I have not bought a bag of kingsford bricks in years and years.

-=J

[Firemonkey]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

well, I tried it. I loaded about half a basket of RO lump, got it well lit and stirred it up a few times, then filled the basket and stirred it up some more. After about 30-45 minutes it was clear that I wasnt going to be cooking with the lower dial all the way closed, just not enough air, and too much heat loss from the top to quickly heat soak the grill. It wanted to choke back to the 200* neighborhood with it closed. This wasnt too much of a surprise. So I opened up the dial all the way, and got it up to the 350 range, and added my food. As everything finished heat soaking, it did creep up to around 400, which is right where I wanted it, so I started dialing back the lower airflow. After an hour or so of cooking, the dial was down to about 1/4 open, and still rock-steady at 395*. After I took off the chicken, I needed some higher heat to quickly grill some zucchini planks, so ope slid the lower door open, and got the typical "hells inferno" of fire. I had this going for a couple of minutes, but it was just too damn hot, so I had to choke it back. Now, here is what is interesting. When I went inside to eat, I thought I had closed the grill, but had only closed the lower dial. So an hour or so after I closed the grill, I am driving around and mowing my lawn, and keep smelling dinner cooking. (BTW, the smells coming out of the grill during this cook were enough to make me want to do it again!) So I stopped the mower by the grill, and as I got off I realized the top was still full open. But now, after having the grill hot for a couple of hours, and the raging fire for a few minutes, before killing the bottom dial, it was still solid at 400*. So this trial has my curiosity piqued. I will be trying it again, and I think that you do have a reasonable degree of control from the lower dial with the top fully open. It is clear that you can control within a range, based on the level of existing heat/fire present. What will be interesting is to see is for how long each range is stable - because I had it holding both 200 and 400 with no lower airflow, just based on the residual heat and amount of lump ignited. Its absolutely viable for grilling - i put my chicken on the upper grill and let it drip in the fire. NO sooty chicken grease taste at all. I would be curious to let something like a stoker try to control the fire from below. Since the stoker has a flap to close the tube when the fan is off. And since you now have one... Flipped the chicken after about 40 minutes, and let it go another 15-20

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

I would be curious to let something like a stoker try to control the fire from below. Since the stoker has a flap to close the tube when the fan is off. And since you now have one...

It is funny, I was thinking the same thing. But here is problem I see. Basically I believe the Stoker door is absolutely useless. Heat/fire draws air like a vacuum, especially with the headspace above the fire in our grill. The Stoker door doesn't care whether it is blown open from the fan behind it or sucked open from the draft of the fire. Isn't really an issue when you have the top damper choked down, but with it open, I imagine the door is useless and would be open just as it the fan was running. Now a fan with an adjustable damper, like the Guru, you could choke the damper almost closed where it would have to force a little air in and that may work. Will be happy to try them out next time I have a few days off.

FYI, the chicken looks great. You said no sooty taste, but did not say it was delicious or flavorless? BTW, most of our local pit cook places use a heavy salt/vinegar mop on the chicken a couple times during the cook. It is absolutely wonderful on chicken. But their temps are a bit different as it is usually a slower cook till the joints are almost falling apart. Crap, I may have to stop by one on the way into work tonight!!

-=J

[Firemonkey]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

It was really good. I tossed a handful of peach twigs in with it, and let is smoke away. The smoke was definitely less concentrated. Probably a good thing too, since as soon as I had put the chicken on the grill, my wife started with her "dont make it too smokey" complainin'. I thought it came out awesome, with a little pink smoke ring on it. She thought it was smoky, but the kids didn't - read that however you want.

I didnt mop or do anything to this one, because I wanted to see if it had any grease taste. Normally I marinate the bird in oil and cider vinegar before I cook it, but this was straight up McCormick Monteal chicken seasoning. I plan to try this method a few more times soon.

[ThreeDJ16]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

Wow, all I can say is that was some fantastic chicken tonight. Pretty much dead on the flavor I was looking for in replicating pit cooked chicken. The wife always thought the closed damper chicken was too smokey....she loved this batch. I used a mop of vinegar, salt & pepper several times during the cook. Just the smells coming off the smoker reminded me so much of being outside of a BBQ dive that still does pit cooking. This just became my #1 method of cooking chicken. And will actually test this out on a longer butt or shoulder cook soon too.

FYI, I used the Guru fan so I could choke off the input damper. After getting the fire going, and still well below desired setpoint of 275 (I start my chicken low), I inserted the Guru fan with a damper setting of only 1/4 open. It did a pretty good job of holding temps (did not have an issue with it raging out of control at all), but not the rock solid temps your used to with top damper barely open. Opening the lid several times for mopping and turning made the Guru a little more unstable. But the fire never was close to going out nor did I have any flareup issues with the entire cook (which was direct on upper grill). Sorry, no pics and way too much beer to worry about them either.

-=J

[Syzygies]

Re: Chicken Fat - Split from First Rotis Cook topic.

Wow' date=' all I can say is that was some fantastic chicken tonight.[/quote']

Ok I'll bite. Can you post a succinct synopsis of what you did? My favorite KK chicken remains a 450 F cook, quite different from constantly tending the open charcoal bed on a rectangular rental cooker, which I also love. Tomorrow is a great source of Farmers Market chicken, I'd like to try your approach.