A cautionary tale (orig from Classic VS OTB)

[gerard]

Forgive me for hijacking this thread, but since I started it, I'm entitled.

7 years ago, the (Sacramento-Indo-Mexi) Kamado forum was a happy place. The owner was a constant participant, fanboys were everywhere and delighting in his presence and his candor and his insistence that we owned or were about to own the best cooker in the world with the best warranty in the world. SongDog can vouch for this if he wishes. We bought it hook, line, and sinker. He and his company could do no wrong. If RJ hadn't gone out of his way to trash the BGE, there would have been almost no dissension at all.

After 6 months to a year there were a few problems but nothing major, or whatever problems arose, were handled off the forum.

It was only after hundreds of cookers were out in the field for several years that many of us realized the product and the warranty were not as advertised. That's when many of the oldtimers dropped out... this was much different than the cooker flame wars. We could no longer recommend the product. Strangely, RJ became too busy to participate in the forums at that time.

Now RJ participates in his forums again. But AlanZ has the forums so fortified that very little dissension surfaces. Never could quite figure out Alan... he's obviously a genuine cooking fanatic and has spent much effort trying to teach others and has pushed the boundaries of ceramic cooking... but to prevent (or enforce the K policy that dictates) frantic, desperate owners from seeking warranty support on his lovingly crafted forum when they have literally no where else to turn would keep me from sleeping at night. I know of many dissatisfied owners and I've been out of the loop for a long time. How many nightmares must the forum moderator know about? Gawd, I'd have to scrape the K sleaze off my monitor nightly.

Oops... I've been prattling. Didn't mean to go beyond the cautionary tale that I thought should be told. This is an extremely new product with no history. Maybe accolades should be reserved for a while. Brag about how beautiful the komodos are when you receive them. Boast about the attention to detail and the overengineering. Crow about their cooking prowess. But issues such as durability, customer service, and warranty support require years to become clear. Lastly, don't try to convince others of the durability, customer service and warranty support and risk them buying on your recommendation until you really know. I've done it and have felt guilty ever since.

Hope my cynicism hasn't made me unwelcome. I plan on being a guinea pig and getting one of these cookers. And I'm certainly enjoying my time here. But my time is short - my wife read this over my shoulder and told me to "Get a life."

[Porkchop]

yeah, I hear you on that. I guess I started checking out the old mexiK forum during the "beginnings of troubles" as opposed to the rosy times. I never saw any of what you did at the beginning there.

to be honest, even with your cautionary tale being truly taken to heart, I think there are a couple differences between what I’ve found here, and what, in even the rosy-est times at mexiK, was not present. and I’ll outline those as explanation for why I'm so enthused here:

1) the ceramic materials being used by Dennis are NOT Dennis' "secret recipe". they are made by Harbison-Walker, which DOES have a well-founded track record for the manufacture of these types of materials. So, the "refractory materials" being used here are NOT untested. and, they are verifiably intended for long-term, high temperature use. So, perhaps a new market, but a tried and true application and material.

2) while Dennis is new to the field of creating ceramic cookers, he has a long standing and successful business in hardwood flooring. diversity is good! the fact that he has been successful for a long time there indicates that he can get thru the growing pains beginning businesses tend to suffer thru at first. he's been thru it before.

3) the fact that he doesn't try to hide mistakes. Check out the forum; he's owned up to things not going perfectly, and used those events to exceed the expectations of several customers that have posted here.

4) Finally, the fact that he helped several working folks there in Indo "pick up the pieces" shows the kind of guy he is. I feel like I’ve gotten to really know him via this forum and emails, and really believe him to be ethical in his approach to this business. That doesn't go away over time, or in the face of adversity.

so, that's why I am making my choice to order here. I'm sorry if I come across as too enthusiastic; that's just the way I am. I really am as excited as I sound. you talk about your wife; mine just scratches her head in wonder. how can I be that enthused about pork???

that's just how I roll, baby!

And as for you, Gerard, I'm collecting wood for your stake-burning as I write... shame on you for being cautious!! burn baby burn

and just so you know, I am at least solely responsible for one tiled mexiK sale, and partially responsible for a second. I don't feel bad. they haven't complained yet. things work out. into every life a little rain must fall. sometimes it sends you in an even better direction...

[Curly]

PorkChop,

There is at least one more plus.

Dennis doesn't have a wife that will cuss you blankety-blankety blank up one side and down the other for even calling the customer service line. That woman can and will cuss like a sailor.

It's just a tad bit unbecoming of a lady and a business owner to do that to her customer base...at least that's my way of thinking on the matter.

[Porkchop]

oh, riot! that's soo funny you bring that up; check out the link and tell me if you think i was being a "flamer" (not that there's anything wrong with that... )

http://www.kamado.com/cgi-bin/discus/sh ... &post=7539

Deb lets me know just what she thinks of me about half-way down. i'll let you gentle readers judge as to whether or not this is an example of my being unreasonable.

If you tried to show some sympathy for those having difficulties, this is how you were treated. the ONLY accepted response would be to attack the complainer...

[Curly]

That thread does no justice to the real language (I've personally heard it on the phone) that lady will use.

[TheNakedWhiz]

I rather enjoyed this bit: "I wish you would post your name so I will remember it so I can turn down your order..."

[gerard]

Porkchop

I'm not saying don't order a cooker and be enthused about it, I'm just saying make Dennis earn praise about durability, customer service and warranty support. It's gonna take a few years and a lot of cookers.

[DennisLinkletter]

Re: A cautionary tale

Gawd, I'd have to scrape the K sleaze off my monitor nightly.

Oops... I've been prattling. Didn't mean to go beyond the cautionary tale that I thought should be told. This is an extremely new product with no history. Maybe accolades should be reserved for a while. Brag about how beautiful the komodos are when you receive them. Boast about the attention to detail and the overengineering. Crow about their cooking prowess. But issues such as durability, customer service, and warranty support require years to become clear. Lastly, don't try to convince others of the durability, customer service and warranty support and risk them buying on your recommendation until you really know. I've done it and have felt guilty ever since.

Hope my cynicism hasn't made me unwelcome. I plan on being a guinea pig and getting one of these cookers. And I'm certainly enjoying my time here. But my time is short - my wife read this over my shoulder and told me to "Get a life."

Touché...

Gawd... Me thinkest you may need to scrub a little to get the K residue off your monitor...

Gerard your always welcome, your history with Mexi-K has scarred you so your cynicism is hardly a surprise.. But it's curable

I would like to educate you a little about Komodo Kamado and myself. This is really one of those Phoenix stories. Your statement, "This is an extremely new product with no history." is both true and at the same time very wrong. Let me clarify this for you. As you know my workers built hundreds of Indo-K's for Mr RJ. So before they even started to work for me, they had experience in building these cookers.. This definitely give them "History" with this type of product.. which of course transfers to my product. They had the history to build them at least as well. Now they have been building for me for 3 years.. that's a total of 6 years.. not really a new company.. Round one to KK

Before I accepted my personal challenge to build the best ceramic cooker I was capable of building, I studied the forums to understand to solve the problems that plague all the different models. I would not have done this project just to build another ceramic that had all the same problems and did not stand out from the pack. If I could not have made something special, I would not have done it at all.

I know production as I designed, built, shipped and sold in my own stores more than 600 containers of high end teak indoor furniture from '89 to '95 which I'm proud to say grossed over 24 million dollars. Anyone in Los Angeles knows about Not So Far East Trading Company which was on La Brea. My crew was up to 420 workers building 125 different designs when striking workers burned my factory to the ground.. (that's another story) My point here is that I have paid my dues and know design and production.

I lived on the internet for months studying materials, writing to people, calling people to talk about what I wanted. I cooked on a K every other day.. I quickly learned what I hated about it's design.. it's real problems.

It took me months of tinkering and futzing to solve the strap self opening problem but it now sets my cooker apart from the others.

As Porkchop points out.. I went to the engineers of the largest refractory company in the world and let them design the ultimate body.. We needed the following:

a refractory material that would be very durable, could handle extreame temperature fluctuations, would reflect heat as but also have great insulating qualities.. They always laughed and said that you could go middle of the road but what you really need is two materials.. As you know I have a dense inner material and a lightweight outer. So I now cast twice.. But it's the best insulated cooker period. Both these materials have "History" and were designed and field tested for years to be used every day in conditions your KK will never even dream about.

Therefore I have a production pedigree, a masters at that and my bodies material does also.. Round 2..KK

You wrote, "But issues such as durability, customer service, and warranty support require years to become clear."

Durability can be engineered and by design.. If you use materials and building techniques with a track record, the results are predictable. There is no rocket science here.. It's a tiled refractory cooker.. the funniest thing is like I say on my web site.. Common sense improvements.. that's all they were.

My customer service was the second prong of attack.. why I knew I could stand out. My CS is excellent because I know how I would like to be treated. It's good now.. why would I change it? I've had my problems shipping trust me.. terrible problems. My recessed wheel although it solved the eyesore, contributed to many a chipped foot. My belief is that it's better to replace a cooker and make zippo or even loose a little than to have a customer with a compromised purchase. The funny thing is that many of those customers are the ones on the forum.. Most people I wrote to never posted references and after 2-3 Emails I gave up.

So I'd have to say that the third round is not the Knock out of the first two but I still win in points..

Gerard, I like you... I really enjoy your being on the forum and I'm looking forward to your being sold on my cookers durability and my CS and you hope never have to deal with any warranty problems. I respect your right to be a bit cynic but reserve the right to shoot it apart and prove you wrong..

Respectfully,

Dennis

[gerard]

Bah, looks like a draw to me.

But I'll concede all 3 rounds if you'll tell the story about the strikers and the burned down factory.

Glad you're not offended.

[Nator]

I'm a test case

I unfortunately happen to be one of those problem shipments Dennis mentioned a few posts above. Dennis has kept me well posted and even offered to ship a classic up from Florida for me to use while I waited for another boat to meander its way across the Pacific.

I turned down the classic loaner offer. I didn't see my benefit being worth Dennis cost for a few weeks of use. Plus, from what I've learned about Dennis, when my OTB arrived, he probably would have offered to sell me the classic at a price I couldn't have refused. I would have two very nice cookers and one less wife!

I do check my email several times a day waiting for the news its on a truck and heading my way. I've recently purchased 20 boxes of Meci-K CEL, 3 bags of Wicked Comepetition lump, neoprene gloves and a thermopen.

I'll post pictures when she gets here.

[gerard]

Re: I'm a test case

...Dennis has kept me well posted and even offered to ship a classic up from Florida for me to use while I waited for another boat to meander its way across the Pacific.

I turned down the classic loaner offer...

Take the loaner. Tell him you'll be in Chickamauga, GA. for the next month or two. I'll send him the exact address.