KK as Steam Oven for Bread

[tony b]

19 hours ago, Syzygies said:

I basically destroyed a Richard K.

Wasn't too hard to do - LOL! 

[tekobo]

On 8/26/2019 at 11:09 AM, Syzygies said:

Proponents of baking no-knead bread in a cast iron pot often claim that the cast iron pot traps steam, also replicating the steam injection in a commercial bread oven. Huh? Their method also produces good bread, but it's totally different. There is no initial surge as steam condenses to water. The crust is interesting, much better than not using the pot, but not the same.

I managed to raise my blood pressure, recklessly and two days after an operation, by kneading bread way too vigorously using the Richard Bertinet slap and fold method.  All well with me now but I mentioned this to a guy at work and he told me about the Dutch oven he had bought for his brother for Christmas and how the no-knead method in the Jim Lahey book produces really good bread.  Has anyone on the forum tried the no-knead method and do you have a view on whether it is worth trying?

[Pequod]

2 hours ago, tekobo said:

I managed to raise my blood pressure, recklessly and two days after an operation, by kneading bread way too vigorously using the Richard Bertinet slap and fold method.  All well with me now but I mentioned this to a guy at work and he told me about the Dutch oven he had bought for his brother for Christmas and how the no-knead method in the Jim Lahey book produces really good bread.  Has anyone on the forum tried the no-knead method and do you have a view on whether it is worth trying?

No knead works fine. You can make great bread this way. Other breads require more structure, hence structure building techniques are called for. I stopped doing slap and folds. Too messy. I now use the Rubaud method for mixing and stretch and folds for structure building during bulk ferment. Much gentler. 

But by all means, give no knead a try. No shame in that.

[MacKenzie]

I've done the no-knead several times and it was tasty and fun. When one starts adding home ground flour to the mix one needs to build structure. This latest bread I'm working on uses the stretch and folds. I also use a pizza stone to bake the bread on and cove it with a large SS pan for the first part of the cook. So far so good. 

[Basher]

I’ve been playing around with dough for a close to 6 months now, mostly the no knead style. The bread keeps getting better and I’m not 100% sure why.
I think the art comes in how you treat the dough in the final stages. I’ve read all the theories and conclude that you just have to dive in and feel the dough.
There are other far more experienced bread makers here who can break down the science.
Today’s pizza crust dough was sooooo silky. Previously I’ve felt like I was handling a sticky mess.
Let me tell you, when the dough feels silky to handle in the final stage it’s a real joy.
Keep playing with it and have some fun with the dough.
I’m loving it and this Henny Penny is happy to to share with friends who are now taking up bread baking with some of my starter, so the results can’t be too bad.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tekobo]

1 hour ago, Pequod said:

No knead works fine. You can make great bread this way. Other breads require more structure, hence structure building techniques are called for. I stopped doing slap and folds. Too messy. I now use the Rubaud method for mixing and stretch and folds for structure building during bulk ferment. Much gentler. 

But by all means, give no knead a try. No shame in that.

 

1 hour ago, MacKenzie said:

I've done the no-knead several times and it was tasty and fun. When one starts adding home ground flour to the mix one needs to build structure. This latest bread I'm working on uses the stretch and folds. I also use a pizza stone to bake the bread on and cove it with a large SS pan for the first part of the cook. So far so good. 

Thank you, lots of different things to try.  When I read your responses I realised that I was really just looking for justification to buy yet another cook book.  I now have a better idea.  Look the techniques up online and try them out and put the money for the cookbook into an "avoided purchase" account.  I am interested in how that might build up over a year if I reconsider what I spend money on.  I suspect I would be very grateful for that avoided purchase sum in twenty years time when I might have less disposable income.  In fact, given it will be money that I would have spent in any case, I might make it a high risk investment fund and see how it goes.  What fun.

42 minutes ago, Basher said:

I think the art comes in how you treat the dough in the final stages. I’ve read all the theories and conclude that you just have to dive in and feel the dough.
There are other far more experienced bread makers here who can break down the science.
Today’s pizza crust dough was sooooo silky.

I agree.  I find it really satisfying to handle the dough by hand and getting to that luscious stage is very rewarding.  I have a sourdough starter and have been making bread but have not tried pizza yet.  Do you simply use the same recipe for sourdough pizza as you do for bread?

[Pequod]

10 minutes ago, tekobo said:

I agree.  I find it really satisfying to handle the dough by hand and getting to that luscious stage is very rewarding.  I have a sourdough starter and have been making bread but have not tried pizza yet.  Do you simply use the same recipe for sourdough pizza as you do for bread?

My answer: NO. Pizza is NOT bread. I use the same starter, but different techniques and formulas for pizza. I repeat. Pizza is NOT bread.

Regarding bread technique, someone asked me for tips on Amazing Ribs recently -- apparently they were hungry after seeing my bread pics. I pointed them here:

http://www.breadwerx.com/champlain-sourdough-recipe-video/

@Basher is correct that proper dough handling is a BIG part of it, and Trevor J. Wilson is amongst the greatest prophets on dough handling technique. What's great about the linked formula is that it isn't particularly high hydration, thus making it an easy to handle dough with great, open crumb and flavour. Once you master this, the basic techniques are easily adaptable to higher percentages of whole grains, hydrations, etc.

[tekobo]

4 minutes ago, Pequod said:

My answer: NO. Pizza is NOT bread. I use the same starter, but different techniques and formulas for pizza. I repeat. Pizza is NOT bread.

Tee hee.  I like a clear answer.  My question, framed more directly, is: what's your go to pizza sourdough recipe?

[Pequod]

4 minutes ago, tekobo said:

Tee hee.  I like a clear answer.  My question, framed more directly, is: what's your go to pizza sourdough recipe?

It's more of a formula than a recipe, and it depends on temperature. That's one of the key lessons of sourdough: the role of time and temperature. Understanding these is key. And why I own a Brod & Taylor folding proofer to help stabilize the proofing temp and make time more predictable. But above all else, learn to read your starter (is it young, peak, "mature"?) and your dough. Enough lecture.

Here is my NY Style Sourdough Pizza formula for proofing at 70 degrees F:

And the same formula for proofing at 65 degrees F:

The procedure is to combine the flour (I use HIGH protein flour -- preferring All Trumps unbromated for pizza), malt, and sugar in the bowl of my stand mixer, then add the starter and water (ice water). Use the dough hook to bring it all together until it cleans the dough off the sides. Let it rest for 20 minutes. Add the salt and knead with the dough hook for one more minute. Add the oil and knead for another 5 minutes until silky smooth. 

Divide the dough, ball it up, put in oiled containers and hold at the appointed temp for 20-24 hours. Your dough will tell you when it is ready to roll.

Just in case baker's % is confusing, here is the 70F formula converted for two 13" pizzas:

[Pequod]

1 minute ago, Pequod said:

 

Divide the dough, ball it up, put in oiled containers and hold at the appointed temp for 20-24 hours. Your dough will tell you when it is ready to roll.

 

I apologize -- "ready to roll" is a euphemism for "ready to proceed". I did NOT mean that you should roll out your dough. Do NOT roll out your dough. I repeat: DO NOT ROLL OUT YOUR DOUGH.

PSA for the day.

[tekobo]

5 minutes ago, Pequod said:

PSA for the day.

Guessing you don't mean prostate-specific antigen.  

[Pequod]

1 minute ago, tekobo said:

Guessing you don't mean prostate-specific antigen.  

Heavens no!

[Syzygies]

Wow, how timely to find this thread active. I also have news to report.

I got tired of cleaning yard schmutz out of my stainless steel chains, so I ordered a second aluminum disk off eBay. My steam generator now consists of one cake pan and two disks, all aluminum:

Fat Daddio's PRD-163 Round Cake Pan, 16 x 3 Inch, Silver

1 Aluminum Disc, 1 1/4" thick x 14 3/4" dia., Mic-6 Cast Tooling Plate, Disk

To my surprise redoing my calculations, aluminum has a significantly higher specific heat capacity than steel: Water, 4181. Aluminum, 897. Ratio: 21.5%

Moreover, these disks are heavy. The cake pan and two disks combine to 44.9 pounds.

So, in a ceramic cooker or oven heated to 450 F, this steam source can boil off 803 grams of ice, or 964 grams of warm (40 C) water. I rarely use more than half that, enough steam to replace the air in a KK or oven several times over. Perhaps I should have just tossed the steel chain, but now I have two aluminum disks. Nice.

As for the no-knead discussion, is there any connection between no-knead recipes and cast iron enclosures? Or are we all playing Simon Says? Are the authors assuming no one is crazy enough to generate steam as Thomas Keller advises? A cast iron enclosure, and a steam generator, both work. They work differently. If no-knead bread is wedded to a cast iron enclosure for some technical reason, I'm all ears. I'm not seeing it. I've tried both ways with my bread (derived from Tartine Bakery which is a nuanced version of no-knead), and steam is better. What pushed me to experiment was a desire to pick my shape and make multiple loaves at once, not to be forced into the shape of the cast iron enclosure.

Edited September 25, 2019 by Syzygies

[tekobo]

8 hours ago, Syzygies said:

To my surprise redoing my calculations, aluminum has a significantly higher specific heat capacity than steel: Water, 4181. Aluminum, 897. Ratio: 21.5%

Moreover, these disks are heavy. The cake pan and two disks combine to 44.9 pounds.

So, in a ceramic cooker or oven heated to 450 F, this steam source can boil off 803 grams of ice, or 964 grams of warm (40 C) water. I rarely use more than half that, enough steam to replace the air in a KK or oven several times over. Perhaps I should have just tossed the steel chain, but now I have two aluminum disks. Nice.

I am happy that you re-did your calculations.  A single aluminium disk and cake pan feels like a realistic option for me and not having to get chain as well is a bonus. 

8 hours ago, Syzygies said:

As for the no-knead discussion, is there any connection between no-knead recipes and cast iron enclosures? Or are we all playing Simon Says? Are the authors assuming no one is crazy enough to generate steam as Thomas Keller advises? A cast iron enclosure, and a steam generator, both work. They work differently. If no-knead bread is wedded to a cast iron enclosure for some technical reason, I'm all ears. I'm not seeing it. I've tried both ways with my bread (derived from Tartine Bakery which is a nuanced version of no-knead), and steam is better. What pushed me to experiment was a desire to pick my shape and make multiple loaves at once, not to be forced into the shape of the cast iron enclosure.

I re-opened the no-knead discussion because my macho application of the slap and fold technique was bad for my health.  All the no-knead recipes that I have found online use a cast iron enclosure.  Have you found that you can use the same no-knead dough recipes and technique without the cast iron pot or have you tweaked both/either in any way?  

As an aside I do find it funny that Smoke Pot Syzygies gets so riled by people who think that using a pot to bake bread is akin to using a steam oven.    I have learned to let such things flow by, even when people insist on calling my KKs Big Blue Green eggs.  

[MacKenzie]

A cake pan and two aluminium discs, now that sounds like a great idea.  

[Syzygies]

8 hours ago, tekobo said:

Have you found that you can use the same no-knead dough recipes and technique without the cast iron pot or have you tweaked both/either in any way?  

As an aside I do find it funny that Smoke Pot Syzygies gets so riled by people who think that using a pot to bake bread is akin to using a steam oven.    I have learned to let such things flow by, even when people insist on calling my KKs Big Blue Green eggs.  

Same recipe (tweaked over the years using a spreadsheet). Different results, both great. I won't even try to describe the differences, as I'm never convinced when someone uses florid language to describe wine, I don't see how I could do better with bread.

Really, I like Bâtards because I can slice them to fit in the toaster. Finding a cast iron dutch oven in this shape is a frequent bread forum question; here is their preferred choice, available from various suppliers:

Bayou Classic Cast Iron Oval Fryer

I like to make two loaves (same work as one loaf), and the steam is easier than juggling two heavy pieces of cast iron. I've been burned both ways; steam burns are far easier to avoid by simply following a proper protocol: Use a slab of ice, or (indoors) wear a silicone mitt.

I wouldn't say I'm riled up. I do like clarity. Some people are more difficult online; I'm probably more difficult in person. As my wife says, we're high maintenance, but we do our own maintaining.

[MacKenzie]

@ Syzyzies, speaking of clarity, I am wondering if you use only one aluminum plate or both to produce your steam and half of  803 grams of ice, or 964 grams of warm (40 C) water? 

Thanks. 

[tekobo]

2 hours ago, Syzygies said:

As my wife says, we're high maintenance, but we do our own maintaining.

This made me smile.  

2 hours ago, Syzygies said:

Same recipe (tweaked over the years using a spreadsheet). Different results, both great. I won't even try to describe the differences, as I'm never convinced when someone uses florid language to describe wine, I don't see how I could do better with bread.

Understood.  I will start my own exploration this weekend.  I don't have the right sort of lodge pan and lid but I can get close with a cast iron casserole and a flat skillet.  Once I have tried the standard method I can start to explore, sans pot.  

9 hours ago, MacKenzie said:

A cake pan and two aluminium discs, now that sounds like a great idea.  

Please can you settle a difference of opinion between Mac and me?  I think your new calcs mean I only need one aluminium disc.  You have two because you can but the second appears to be surplus to requirements.  Am I right?  Or is Macqueenzie? The cake tin was purchased a week ago from here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B008ALVN20/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_H58IDb6FVE884 but I need to wait until I get to the US in November to get the aluminium disc, unless I find a similar by product of cutting holes in metal in the UK.  

Edited September 25, 2019 by tekobo

[Syzygies]

4 hours ago, MacKenzie said:

@ Syzyzies, speaking of clarity, I am wondering if you use only one aluminum plate or both to produce your steam and half of  803 grams of ice, or 964 grams of warm (40 C) water? 

Thanks. 

That calculation is for two plates.

One shouldn't trust other people, ever, to do numbers. Let me explain my calculations so you can check me:

A calorie is the energy it takes to raise a gram of water one degree centigrade.

It takes 80 calories to thaw a gram of ice, 100 calories to bring that gram to the boiling point, and 540 calories to then turn that gram of water to steam. When the steam condenses, it releases that same energy. That's why steam burns are so severe. That's why the bread loaf notices we're doing this.

By weight, aluminum holds 21.5% as much heat energy as water. This is better than steel, at around 13%. Water has a specific heat capacity of 4,181. Aluminum has a specific heat capacity of 897. The fraction 897 / 4181 = 0.2145.

I bake at 450 F = 232 C. That's 132 C above the boiling point 100 C of water.

My cake pan with two aluminum disks weighs 44.9 pounds. 44.9 * 454 = 20,385 grams. Scaling by 0.2145, that's the same heat capacity as 4,373 grams of water.

4,373 grams of water times 132 C above boiling = 577,236 calories of energy for us to play with.

To turn ice to steam in the KK, we need 80 + 100 + 540 calories per gram of ice, or 720 calories. Our 577,236 calories divided by 720 is 800 grams of ice.

400 grams of ice is plenty, so one aluminum disk is plenty.

A facility with math lets one shorten all this substantially in one's head, or write a spreadsheet, but anyone can work through each sentence one at a time, and understand what's going on here.

If one wants to check my research, in addition to my calculations, here is a site describing turning ice to steam, with numbers matching mine:

Heat Energy Required to Turn Ice into Steam

The ratio of specific heats between aluminum and water is what matters here, not the units or their definitions, which can get confusing. Here's a table that yields similar ratios to mine:

Table of Specific Heats

And there's an age-old tension between theoretical physicists and experimental physicists (I am neither). Theory is only good for puzzles unless it works. In my experience, these calculations work.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Syzygies

[MacKenzie]

I really appreciate you taking the time to explain everything. Enjoyed the read and am extremely happy about just needing one disc. I maybe able to round up one in Canada. The eBay seller you mentioned does not ship to Canada. If I can't find one here I may ask someone to ship one to me from the US but I wouldn't ask anyone to ship two due to the weight. The cake pan I can get here. I think your method of generating steam is really neat. It will work in the KK and in the kitchen oven. Thanks for the help.