Komodo the plagiarist? NOT!

[DennisLinkletter]

Time for clarification..

RJ of Kamado repeatedly has me a plagiarist, i.e. one who takes someone else's work or ideas and passes them off as one's own.

Let's clear this up for once and all.

Yes, the Komodo's design was definitely inspired by Kamado BUT EVERY component has been improved and redesigned.

Starting from the shaft on the damper top,

to the cookers shape,

to the lack of external straps,

to the hinge,

to the self opening spring in leu of the prop tubes,

to the bodies two layer design and refractory materials,

to the CNC cut frame and low airflow control feature in the lower draft door,

to the curved side handles on my grills,

and having 3/8" grills

to having the lower grill and upper not needing a separate bracket as legs

to the two piece firebox which sits on a ledge,

to the charcoal basket with heat deflector/sear grill supports,

to the new leg design with beefy steel frame inside,

to the SS foot protectors,

to the high quality high density rubber castors..

What does that leave? Tiles only the tiles..

So RJ, I say it now.. Thank you for your Kamado and the inspiration it gave me.

The Komodo I build today would not be here if you had not taken the first step and built yours..

Now take a look at the 2008 Kamado and see how many features are “inspired” by Komodo.

[rorkin]

Here here !!!!!!

[paul1927]

Re: Komodo the plagiarist? NOT!

Time for clarification..

RJ of Kamado repeatedly has me a plagiarist, i.e. one who takes someone else's work or ideas and passes them off as one's own.

Let's clear this up for once and all.

Yes, the Komodo's design was definitely inspired by Kamado BUT EVERY component has been improved and redesigned.

Hi Dennis,

If you were a plagiarist, then . I've done business with the other guys and although I found them to be very friendly and homey, the business side of it was a definite turn off----from delays, poor communication, overcharges, etc. I feel very fortunate that I purchased my Qs from you because you stand 100% behind your product and it is top quality.

[steve]

Let's see some side by side photo's. (maybe a new thread) I know a lot of people on the forum have both. The only rule would be no airbrushed photos, and NO makeup.

[Fast Freddie]

Now that I own a KK, I can see the difference. Night & day!!

[Syzygies]

Re: Komodo the plagiarist? NOT!

Time for clarification..

What does that leave? Tiles only the tiles..

As one whose tiles fell off my Kamado, without a word of apology from RJ, I sure hope that you also improved the tiles! My local brickyard thought I would be crazy to try reattaching tiles to a curved outdoor surface experiencing broad temperature swings, so I went textured. If you're not having tile issues, then you must know something few people know.

I'm saving my pennies for a KK, in part I crave a better "fit" as my bands are also beyond adjustment, I need to make a seal so I can stop using masking tape on each low & slow. But the questions I'll have will be:

1. Why should I expect the tiles to stay on?

2. Half the time when I buy a product that doesn't need adjustment, I realize that the English-to-English translation is can't be adjusted.

That said, the KK looks to be best-of-market, what I wish I'd been able to buy back in the day... Keep it up.

[Sanny]

Anyone else feel compelled to say, "Igor! It's ALIVE! Mwahahahahahaaa!"

[rorkin]

Re: Komodo the plagiarist? NOT!

Time for clarification..

What does that leave? Tiles only the tiles..

I have had the KK through many cooks and 2 winters.. No tiles have fallen off.

It is adjustable

If Dennis says something is true.. It is True !!!!!

[TheNakedWhiz]

Syzygies, I was talking to Dennis the other day and I asked him out of curiosity how much trouble he was having with tiles and he essentially said after several hundred cookers, no real problems. (I'd be more specific, but I can't remember his exact words. However, that's the jist of it.) That's good enough for me. Dennis has proven himself to me to be honest and worthy of our trust. Let me assure you that if Dennis had problems with tiles falling off, a) we'd know about it and Dennis would be on the next generation of tile/adhesion design and c) Dennis would be making things right. I know I probably sound like some of RJ's defenders over on the K forum in years past, but I really believe what I just said and think I have good reason to believe it. And of course, if Dennis had any real problems, it would have shown up on this board, which it has not.

[Firemonkey]

1. Why should I expect the tiles to stay on?

2. Half the time when I buy a product that doesn't need adjustment, I realize that the English-to-English translation is can't be adjusted.

Im not sure there is a single answer to the first question. Its probably a combination of several things, perhaps most notably the difference between the KK body and the portland cement RJ uses. I am by no means an engineer, and can only provide a hypothesis here, but I expect that the less dense outer layer does not expand and contract as much as a one layer cement body. I know it doesnt crack like the cement does (I have a K and a KK side by side). Those cracks have to allow some degree of moisture to get behind the tile, too.

So lets assume we have less substrate movement. There is also better seating in the mortar -KK tiles are set into a thick mortar bed, so the mortar is actually up around the sides of the tile. The grout is a thin layer on top. KK is also using grout compounds that are resilient and provide some flexibility when the cooker does expand and contract. The grout is sealed from the factory as proactive measure, and a bottle of additional grout sealer is shipped with the grill. Maybe its none of the above, but I can say that my KK isnt losing any tile, while my K will need resurfaced at some point (lots of loose sections, but they are still hanging on )

Finally, people who have done tile repairs on a RJ Kamado are reporting that the repaired sections perform better than the factory sections. Majestic has a thread on this forum with pictures of his complete re-tile job, and damper/neck surgery as a bonus

On Question2 - Adjustment is possible. The latch has elongated holes behind the acorn nuts to allow adjustment to latch tension. The same is true on the back where the spring mounts bolt the the body, so you can adjust the way the back of the dome seats on the base. You can also adjust your gasket if you need to - though I am sure a seasoned Kamado owner is familiar with that process

[ThreeDJ16]

Firemonkey, better tile adhesion might also have to do with Dennis' vacuum kiln process also. One of the issues with the other tile grill manu was large amounts of water retained in the wall material. Water behind tile is a very bad thing and causes the mastic to loose adhesion. Dennis' process removes much of the retained water. He also uses a microfiber material in the walls to allow a path out for the water during the vacuum kiln process. So these are big advantages to combat against initial tile loss on the KK and would help explain while later tile replacements held better on the other grill (since use removes water).

-=Jasen=-

[Syzygies]

So lets assume we have less substrate movement. There is also better seating in the mortar -KK tiles are set into a thick mortar bed' date=' so the mortar is actually up around the sides of the tile.[/quote']

Thanks for the detailed write-up, this is exactly the information I was curious about, that I wasn't seeing around.

In 2004 visits to the Kamado Sacramento factory, I watched tiles being applied. I didn't give this much thought at the time, so my recollection is part speculation, but I gave this plenty of thought when my tiles started to fall off.

The tiles came in strips, on a synthetic webbing so many could be applied at once. The surface of the bare K was slathered with what looked like some kind of acrylic medium, then strips of tiles were set into place, and allowed to dry. Later, when I looked into formulating the best mortar mix for retexturing my K, I bought acrylic medium that looked very much like what I saw, for use instead of water in preparing mortar. (Better mortar mixes can be prepared with water, but come out stronger if one uses an acrylic medium instead, and perhaps some fibers for strength.) There may have been other additives, but this was a thick milky white liquid, not mortar. There could have been some mortar mixed in, as the mixture was thick, but the milky gloss of acrylic medium was dominant.

As a failed artist, I'm well aware that acrylic medium makes a damn fine glue. However, I cannot parse what I saw in Sacramento with any directions I could find for using acrylic medium. My gut is that this was a mis-application of the medium, that "worked", except that it didn't.

Everything that you describe for KK manufacture is consistent with giving tiles the best odds possible for staying on, and is night-and-day different from what I saw in Sacramento. RJ had plenty of chances to respond to my posts on the K forum to clarify his procedure, and he didn't.

Bottom line: I'd expect KK tiles to stay on, from what you've said.

[Majestik]

Fun with tiles...

Hi Syzygies,

As Firemonkey mentioned, I've had to re-tile my K7 more than once. The first time most of the tiles on the dome fell off, the second time most of them on the base came off. I used a tile adhesive I found at Home Depot (can't recall the name off the top of my head)... but I noticed a huge difference between what I used and what RJ had used. RJ's adhesive or mortar, whatever it was, was brittle, sandy, and prone to detaching in large pockets. The adhesive I used was smooth like a thick glue and dried with certain amount of rubbery springiness. During the last retiling I found that everything from my first retiling was still rock solid. In fact, a few tiles I needed to remove and re-do were a real PITA to get off. So you could have retiled your kamado with some success... but ultimately it's the food that matters, as you know.

My Kamado is now a mutant hybrid-- I had to install a new spin-top (kindly provided by Dennis after RJ wouldn't help me). It is cooking better than ever now. I'll get a KK someday, but right now, to be honest, I am being well served.

If you're at all interested, here is the link to my re-build:

Like a Phoenix from the Ashes

[Syzygies]

Re: Fun with tiles...

I used a tile adhesive I found at Home Depot (can't recall the name off the top of my head)... but I noticed a huge difference between what I used and what RJ had used.

Majestik, that's one truly beautiful restoration.

It comes back to me, I also saw this tile adhesive at Home Depot, that must be the kind of goop RJ used in Sacramento, but a different brand. I was advised by my brickyard to stay clear of the stuff, setting into mortar is better. I assumed that this acrylic adhesive is all bad, because the stuff used on my K didn't work, or at a minimum that it is rather sensitive to technique. (Read the application temperature range on the label. Ever been to Sacramento or Mexico in the summer?) I'm happy for you that your re-application is stronger than the original.

KK tiles are set into a thick mortar bed' date=' so the mortar is actually up around the sides of the tile. The grout is a thin layer on top.[/quote']

That seems the right technique, to me.

Ask yourself, what should happen when one tile comes loose? Should it pop out, or should it cling tenaciously to its neighbors so that they all come off in a sheet?

This is one of those concepts from Engineering 101, when you're done making everything as strong as possible, you still want to get right which subsystem is weakest. Cars have plans for how they'll crumple in an accident, so the engine doesn't push the steering column through the driver's chest. This is sensible engineering, to not plan what breaks first is just plain stupid, and in the case of cars, lethal.

The grout between my Kamado tiles was much stronger than the adhesive behind the tiles, so the tiles failed in catastrophic sheets. This isn't as serious as mis-engineering a car, but just as dumb. In my opinion, Firemonkey is describing the right way to apply tiles.

[trish]

My memory may deceive me ( ), but I kinda recall that when Dennis first started up there in Indonesia he discovered that RJ's former employees were not mixing the tile adhesive properly.

Bottom line, you have to have an extremely capable production manager on site all the time during production as you are dealing with a labor force that requires close supervision on a constant basis.

Deej, remove this part if it is over the line, but I remember the Kamado production manager who openly informed the kamado forum about the bad batch of concrete used in some cookers that had too much water in it, and it was done during the winter when there were extended rains and high humidity. The concrete would not dry. My point is, there can be mistakes made when formulating mixes. It seems Dennis has the capability to make sure there is sufficient oversight of the process. Previous discussions on this forum have indicated he makes a great effort to get highly trained production manager/supervisors, and then you have to make sure they do their jobs. Beyond the design improvements that Dennis has implemented, the quality control seems to be consistent.

I think we all agree that the first step in customer service issues is a direct email/contact to the vendor. It is basic courtesy to give a vendor/manufacturer the opportunity to address a mistake or issue. We all well know that when the opportunity is extended and ignored the problem would find its way to the forum. What we have consistently seen with Dennis is that when there are little issues they are quickly addressed. RJ has evasive, defensive response to problems. Dennis has shown action oriented response.

I look forward to seeing your dissertaion on being a Happy Camper!