KK as Steam Oven for Bread

[David Chang]

@dj-dj haha, i can't help you. i've failed so many breads on the kk i gave up (it's the same with bread in the pizza oven)

but the wizards who came up with this method on this forum can. @Syzygies @Pequod

 

[Pequod]

It’s really @Syzygies who did the math. All comes down to thermal mass needed in the preheated metal of the pan and discs to rapidly convert a cup of ice to steam. The drip tray doesn’t have much by way of thermal mass, so must add it some other way. That’s the purpose of the heavy metal.

[tekobo]

I think I read @Syzygies say that he had changed his mind and didn't think we needed the heavy mass of the aluminium disc anymore.  Hopefully he will chime in and explain.  I want to know because it is his fault that I have a heavy aluminium disc cluttering up my bbq cupboard. 😜

[David Chang]

this talk of steam reminded me to ask my wife in singapore to pickup a low profile vaporizer for my effeuno. something i always wanted for open bakes..

[Pequod]

Here's Maurizio's method at The Perfect Loaf for steaming your home oven. Baking Bread with Steam in Your Home Oven | The Perfect Loaf

I'd skip the towel thing since KK is already a moist environment. But a cast iron pan with some lava rocks seems reasonable.

[C6Bill]

I tried steam and it is just so much easier to use a dutch oven. 

[Syzygies]

On 5/28/2024 at 2:28 AM, tekobo said:

I think I read @Syzygies say that he had changed his mind and didn't think we needed the heavy mass of the aluminium disc anymore.  Hopefully he will chime in and explain.  I want to know because it is his fault that I have a heavy aluminium disc cluttering up my bbq cupboard. 😜

Actually, what I realized was that aluminum has nearly twice the specific heat capacity as steel, so I replaced my steel chains with an aluminum disk. 

21 hours ago, Pequod said:

Here's Maurizio's method at The Perfect Loaf for steaming your home oven. Baking Bread with Steam in Your Home Oven | The Perfect Loaf

Thomas Keller is the earliest reference I know to using rocks, which I consider a clumsier approach than an aluminum disk.

There are two pervasive problems with web debates, both raised by The Perfect Loaf. First, they need content, so they'll write something. Second, many people will assert that they're happy with an intermediate solution, and all they're saying is that they're happy. Partly because they're unaware of better solutions, and haven't tried them.

The Perfect Loaf certainly doesn't compute the physics. That is a time-honored approach: Try something and see if you're happy with the results. Of course, many people claim to be happy spritzing 5 grams of water from a plant spritzer. That's a placebo effect.

What I computed was the weight of aluminum needed to create enough steam to replace the volume of a KK or a conventional oven a couple times over. This is what commercial bread ovens do, because they can. What I don't understand is the marginal utility over generating just enough steam to partly fill an oven once. That certainly helps over doing nothing. It's amazing how in a weak bleach solution, bleach finds its target. I don't believe that a weak steam mixture behaves the same way, but my chemistry days are long ago.

Edited May 29 by Syzygies

[Syzygies]

9 minutes ago, C6Bill said:

I tried steam and it is just so much easier to use a dutch oven. 

The Challenger Bread Pan is an effective alternative to filling an entire oven with steam. They're the same idea as the Dutch oven approach, except one gets to bake a bâtard, which some of us prefer to a boule. They recommend a couple of ice cubes. In a KK, the bread then doesn't see fire till one removes the Challenger lid. That's ok; for us the main advantage of the KK is avoiding heat in the house in the summer.

[Pequod]

1 hour ago, Syzygies said:

The Challenger Bread Pan is an effective alternative to filling an entire oven with steam. They're the same idea as the Dutch oven approach, except one gets to bake a bâtard, which some of us prefer to a boule. They recommend a couple of ice cubes. In a KK, the bread then doesn't see fire till one removes the Challenger lid. That's ok; for us the main advantage of the KK is avoiding heat in the house in the summer.

After messing around with various steam-making methods, I've decided the Challenger is far simpler and more consistent. There are alternatives to the Challenger. Serious Eats reviewed some of these and found they all work well: The 3 Best Bread Ovens and Cloches of 2024, Tested & Reviewed (seriouseats.com)

[Syzygies]

2 hours ago, Pequod said:

There are alternatives to the Challenger. Serious Eats reviewed some of these and found they all work well: The 3 Best Bread Ovens and Cloches of 2024, Tested & Reviewed (seriouseats.com)

Yes. I owned and gave away the Lodge Double Dutch Oven, recommended by various books and predating the Challenger, because it only made boules. I considered and rejected the Fourneau Bread Oven for exactly the downsides they note. The Challenger just works, and it bakes bâtards.

I used to always bake a pair of loaves and give one away, which favored my aluminum disk in a cake pan for steam. I now bake one bâtard at a time, which favors the Challenger. The KK appears to handle my steam method just fine, but when we spent more than my first two cars on an Italian range for our kitchen, we blinked. We'll still use my steam method for free form baking in the KK, but like @Pequod the Challenger has become my default both inside and in the KK.

[wrandyr]

I am of the opinion that the dough contains all the moisture it needs for the bake, as long as you can keep it in the vicinity of the loaf. To that end, I have had good success with simply placing a preheated metal bowl over the loaf on a sheet pan or even just a piece of parchment paper on the oven rack. It's a lot easier to handle than hot cast iron and seems to get the same result.

[David Chang]

8 hours ago, wrandyr said:

I am of the opinion that the dough contains all the moisture it needs for the bake, as long as you can keep it in the vicinity of the loaf. To that end, I have had good success with simply placing a preheated metal bowl over the loaf on a sheet pan or even just a piece of parchment paper on the oven rack. It's a lot easier to handle than hot cast iron and seems to get the same result.

i have also done this, but fully enclosed cast iron gives the best result. 

[dj-dj]

I have nef domestic steam ovens in my Kitchen. But I think their steam is inconsistent so had been looking into the challenger pan already. The comments here have cemented my desire/decision to buy the challenger. I imagine either in the KK or my ovens I’ll cook bread in 15 minute relays, using the challenger for the first 15 minutes for each loaf. 
 

challenger due to arrive tomorrow, KK next month. 

[MacKenzie]

dj-dj, please show us the results of your Challenger adventure. 

[Syzygies]

3 hours ago, dj-dj said:

I imagine either in the KK or my ovens I’ll cook bread in 15 minute relays, using the challenger for the first 15 minutes for each loaf. 

Stainless Steel Pizza Peel With Collapsible Rosewood Handle

Relays could work, but they call it The Challenger for a reason!

Their suggested directions are to preheat at 500 F, put in the loaf with a few ice cubes, reduce the heat to 425 F and bake 20 minutes covered, then 12 minutes uncovered. I flip the lid and put the base on the lid.

I find that these directions work well for a range of breads. Sometimes I rotate halfway through the 12 minutes uncovered. Sometimes I go 15 minutes. Sometimes I flip the loaf bottom side up for the last few minutes.

I've been working with 80% hydration, 95% extraction doughs from freshly ground grain. This poses challenges; I generally bake cold from an extended fridge ferment. My loaves would stick without parchment paper underneath; I use the above mini pizza peel to move them without damage. I've tried removing the parchment paper at the 20 minute uncovering mark, and the loaves still aren't completely set. I now just let the parchment paper ride, perhaps up to the final flip.

In practice, one can't adjust KK temperatures this rapidly, and one often doesn't want to run an indoor oven longer than necessary. I find that once The Challenger itself reads 425 F using an infrared shooter, we're good to go. With the KK, I'll arc high and ease down to target temperature.

So you could run a relay pipeline, if you have a  stone or steel that fits next to The Challenger, while maintaining a constant baking temperature.

[wrandyr]

7 hours ago, Syzygies said:

My loaves would stick without parchment paper underneath; I use the above mini pizza peel to move them without damage. I've tried removing the parchment paper at the 20 minute uncovering mark, and the loaves still aren't completely set. I now just let the parchment paper ride, perhaps up to the final flip.

I have a Fourneau, which ships with a perforated silicone mat to bake on. Might be an option to the parchment.

[Syzygies]

56 minutes ago, wrandyr said:

I have a Fourneau, which ships with a perforated silicone mat to bake on. Might be an option to the parchment.

FOURNEAU 2.0 SILICONE BAKING MAT

Yes, that mat is approximately 11.25" x 6.75", and the Challenger interior dimensions are 11.5" x 9". So that would work!

[Pequod]

21 hours ago, Syzygies said:

FOURNEAU 2.0 SILICONE BAKING MAT

Yes, that mat is approximately 11.25" x 6.75", and the Challenger interior dimensions are 11.5" x 9". So that would work!

I use this in my Challenger: https://rosehillsourdough.com/product/the-breadmat/

[Syzygies]

15 hours ago, Pequod said:

I use this in my Challenger: https://rosehillsourdough.com/product/the-breadmat/

I ordered the Fourneau mat, which fits on my mini pizza peel, and doesn't need handles.

I do own scissors, but do the BreadMat-C handles get in the way of closing the Challenger?

Once I toss in three ice cubes, I feel like I'm on a tight clock. Steam does make its way between the Challenger pieces and the knitting of the Challenger gloves. I've never been burned, but I don't feel like waiting around! As in, any extra step that takes another half second would be dumb.

They do say two ice cubes, but they don't specify a size.

Quote

The v2, -L, and -C all feature a solid silicone border to strengthen the mat

Huh. Their handles are to overcome the difficulties in lowering an unbaked loaf into a tall-sided Dutch oven. A solid border prevents deforming the loaf. However, the Challenger doesn't have tall sides, and readily accepts my mini pizza peel. Do the handles stay up, so they're never in the way when one replaces the Challenger lid?

Edited June 19 by Syzygies

[Pequod]

3 hours ago, Syzygies said:

Huh. Their handles are to overcome the difficulties in lowering an unbaked loaf into a tall-sided Dutch oven. A solid border prevents deforming the loaf. However, the Challenger doesn't have tall sides, and readily accepts my mini pizza peel. Do the handles stay up, so they're never in the way when one replaces the Challenger lid?

Yes, the handles stand straight up once the mat is positioned in the bottom. I just place it on a wood pizza peel, position and score my dough. Then remove the pre-heated Challenger from the oven and slide the breadmat into position using the handle on the front to pull and guide it. You can drop in the ice cubes from there, close the lid, and bake.