Common Mistakes in a True Neopolitan Pizza

[Pequod]

Ah, I see. You did the Neapolitan dough from pizza Bible. I'd assumed you'd done the Master dough, which is NY style. A bit of dmp will definitely help the Neapolitan too, as it's essentially unmalted. 

I stand by my recommendation of the pizza Bible NY style dough. It's very good and works well on a KK. 

[tekobo]

2 hours ago, Pequod said:

I stand by my recommendation of the pizza Bible NY style dough. It's very good and works well on a KK. 

Cool.  Will try that too.  Your Chicago Southside Thin is still one of my best pizza successes.

[amusedtodeath]

Nice discussion and post.  

[Syzygies]

On 7/6/2018 at 4:07 AM, Pequod said:

The Pizza Bible [...] also adds in diastatic malt powder. In short, the Pizza Bible recipe is for a NY style pizza with browning agents and is amenable to a lower temp (550F-650F).

I experimented with many add-ins, including diastatic malt powder, figuring out sourdough bread in the KK. I stopped using it after a few tries. I want to bake my bread as long as feasible. A browning agent shortens this window with no compensating benefit that I could identify.

We took a pizza class with Rosetta Costantino (author of My Calabria). She favors the hottest oven one can arrange, so she counsels stripping any dough recipe of any add-ins (sugar, oil) that increase browning. Like landing a plane in adverse conditions, one wants the longest possible runway.

My neighbors installed a dedicated wood-fired pizza oven, which presents its own host of challenges. By comparison, the main challenge (in my experience) using a KK is properly contending with the "from below" heat source. Without a heat deflector, essentially all of the heat is coming up through the stone, and one ends up pan-roasting the pizza. Recall the often-given advice for wood burning pizza ovens: Measure the stone, not the air. There's considerable lag in the stone. In the worst case, a fire got away but one corrects, thinking the new lower air temperature means one can bake pizzas after all. The still-too-hot stone then incinerates the pizza crust before the topping cooks.

My favorite way to bake/roast anything in the KK is to start the fire earlier than one thinks necessary, and cook after the fire is dying down, but the KK itself is very heat soaked. This is tricky to both time and manage, but then one is cooking more with radiant heat from the KK walls, for a more even effect like a dedicated wood-fired pizza oven.

[MacKenzie]

I took this advice and got up and move from comfy chair in my ODK and lit my pizza cook fire. Now I can go back to where I was for a couple of hours.

 

[ckreef]

When using the baking stone in the KK I first light the fire, wait for the KK to get to the temperature I want and stabilize (this takes about an hour). It's at this point I put the baking stone in. The temperature will drop but I leave the vents alone. Eventually the temp climbs back up to where it was when I put the stone on. (takes about an hour). I now know the KK and stone are equalized and ready. 

It's a fairly simple process that you can use for timing. I usually start this 2 1/2 hours before I need it ready. Gives me an extra 30 minutes and if it is ready early no big deal it can sit and wait on me. 

 

[Pequod]

Yup. Agree with everything @Syzygies said. When baking anything in the KK, I’ll light it long before the bake to both fully heat soak and manage the direct heat from below. I also tend to use repurposed Grillgrates as a deflector just in case.

The whole thing about browning agents reminds me of something @ckreef preaches often. One of his ten commandments of pizza: the dough recipe is designed to be baked at the temp called for. Taking that one step further - the dough recipe is designed for a particular cooking method too. Hence, when Forkish preaches Neapolitan 00 doughs in a home oven...that works because of the Hydration he employs AND use of a broiler to achieve browning. Browning agents (sugar, oil, DMP) are a way to, in effect, cheat a bit on the cook temp while achieving a similar result. However, sugar and DMP can and do have an impact on the dough itself via the fermentation and proofing processes too. There’s a long thread and much other discussion at pizzamaking.com comparing DMP and non-DMP doughs.

There are also a couple of useful tables someone developed that provide guidance on dough fermentation & proofing times as a function of leavening type (sourdough or baker’s yeast) and amount (%) as a function of temperature. The preponderance of empirical evidence is that these tables are pretty accurate. Hence, if you find a dough formula you like, but want to convert it to sourdough or extend the fermentation time for more flavour, these tables provide a nice way to make that conversion. 

This is the table for sourdough: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0

This is the table for baker’s yeast: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0

 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Pequod

[tony b]

I need to learn more patience when it comes to bread and pizza in the KK. Like all ya'll preach - start way earlier than you think to give everything plenty of time to heat soak and equilibrate. 

[Pequod]

9 minutes ago, tony b said:

I need to learn more patience when it comes to bread and pizza in the KK. Like all ya'll preach - start way earlier than you think to give everything plenty of time to heat soak and equilibrate. 

...and to build flavour into your dough.

I, for one, appreciate the proper use of “all y’all”. 

Edited July 8, 2018 by Pequod

[MacKenzie]

Today I used my NY style Serious Eats pizza dough to make a naked pizza.  

Heated the KK and stone to 530F. Used an IR thermometer to check.

Dough is just out of fridge, started it last evening.

Made 2 dough balls.

Pizza one with fresh mozzarella.

Baking on KK.

Done and ready for basil from the garden.

 

Basil from the garden.

Crumb view.

Pizza 2 added more sauce and cheese this time.

Pizza 2 on KK.

Second pizza baked.

This was a fun cook, but I miss my loaded pizza. 

 

[ckreef]

They look tasty to me. 

 

[tekobo]

I am glad that you have extended this conversation.  I had some "stupid" questions saved up that I now feel able to ask, using your various points as triggers: 

14 hours ago, Pequod said:

reminds me of something @ckreef preaches often. One of his ten commandments of pizza: the dough recipe is designed to be baked at the temp called for. Taking that one step further - the dough recipe is designed for a particular cooking method too.

Given a KK can go up to 700F I wasn't sure why everyone recommended cooking pizza at around the 550F mark when real pizza ovens are run at higher temperatures.  Is it because we are using recipes adapted for the "home" oven?

17 hours ago, Syzygies said:

We took a pizza class with Rosetta Costantino (author of My Calabria). She favors the hottest oven one can arrange,

What temperature and dough combination do you use for the Neopolitan pizza @Syzygies?  Does "hottest oven one can arrange"=highest temperature or best heat saturation?

17 hours ago, Syzygies said:

By comparison, the main challenge (in my experience) using a KK is properly contending with the "from below" heat source. Without a heat deflector, essentially all of the heat is coming up through the stone, and one ends up pan-roasting the pizza.

What do you use as a heat deflector and do you do this because the temperature of the pizza stone continues to rise uncontrollably without one?

16 hours ago, ckreef said:

When using the baking stone in the KK I first light the fire, wait for the KK to get to the temperature I want and stabilize (this takes about an hour). It's at this point I put the baking stone in. The temperature will drop but I leave the vents alone. Eventually the temp climbs back up to where it was when I put the stone on. (takes about an hour). I now know the KK and stone are equalized and ready.

Why do you stabilise the KK temp before putting the pizza stone in @ckreef?  Wouldn't it work to have the stone and the KK come up to temperature over the same period?  Or might the stone, for some reason, get too hot if left to heat up for the same length of time as the KK?

All out of questions, stupid or otherwise.   Happy to be directed to other posts if all of this has already been explained elsewhere.

 

 

[tekobo]

12 hours ago, MacKenzie said:

This was a fun cook, but I miss my loaded pizza.

Nice looking pizzas @MacKenzie.  You didn't have to be purist about it.  We sneaked a bit of lardo onto our seventh pizza once we were satisfied we had assessed all three doughs fairly.  

[ckreef]

1 hour ago, tekobo said:

 

1) Given a KK can go up to 700F I wasn't sure why everyone recommended cooking pizza at around the 550F mark when real pizza ovens are run at higher temperatures.  Is it because we are using recipes adapted for the "home" oven?

 

2) What do you use as a heat deflector and do you do this because the temperature of the pizza stone continues to rise uncontrollably without one?

3) Why do you stabilise the KK temp before putting the pizza stone in @ckreef?  Wouldn't it work to have the stone and the KK come up to temperature over the same period?  Or might the stone, for some reason, get too hot if left to heat up for the same length of time as the KK?

 

I'll give my thoughts on the questions as I have numbered them above. 

1) Generally yes. Most pizza recipes are formulated for an oven and most ovens can get to 500* tops. You could push that to 550* in a kamado. You will have optimum results cooking at whatever the recommended temperature is. A lot of people new to pizza making on a grill just ignore the recipe and cook at too high a temperature. They think it is going to work better. This not only effects browning but also how the dough rises. 

2) a pizza stone (or anything else you put in the kamado) will only get as high as the grill temp. Unless (and this is a big one), unless it is trapping heat below it. In this case the stone could potentially get much hotter than the dome thermometer. 

3) I use the baking stone on my upper rack with no bottom deflector. Using my method it is a real easy way to tell when both the stone and the dome are heat soaked and equal in temp. A stone can easily get to temperature before the dome is heat soaked if the stone is put on at the same time. There is more than one way to skin this cat and that's just my way. 

 

[MacKenzie]

My Substitution Breakfast - pizza crust for toast, tomato sauce for cherry jam, fresh mozzarella for egg, and a side of toppings. 

 

Edited July 9, 2018 by MacKenzie

[Syzygies]

6 hours ago, tekobo said:

Given a KK can go up to 700F I wasn't sure why everyone recommended cooking pizza at around the 550F mark when real pizza ovens are run at higher temperatures.  Is it because we are using recipes adapted for the "home" oven?

What temperature and dough combination do you use for the Neopolitan pizza @Syzygies?  Does "hottest oven one can arrange"=highest temperature or best heat saturation?

Rosetta Costantino meant get a home oven as hot as it goes (without hacking the self-cleaning mode to get the door to open!). That's below reputed Neapolitan temperatures.

She's an engineer by training, with a successful Silicon Valley career that gave her the chance to retire young. So I believe her when she told us she brought an infrared temperature shooter around Italy, and never saw temperatures as high as claimed, where the pizza actually landed in the ovens. Huh. At the same time, The Neapolitan Pizza book is clear that the oven floor must be brought to 380 C - 465 C (715 F - 870 F). What follows are heat transfer equations. Huh.

I'm reminded of firing cones, for pottery kilns. While one can describe what happens in a kiln by final temperature, a "cone" is a canary in the mineshaft to witness and integrate the entire progress of the cook. We talk about temperatures as a result of modern-day indoctrination, as if the model replaces reality. Mathematicians are the worst offenders; their tendency to substitute idealized models for reality turns what should be fairly smart people into blithering idiots. (I try to avoid discussing politics with mathematicians; the world doesn't always work the way they think it does.)

So 550 F is just a guideline; there are many ways to come up with this reading. The Tel-Tru thermometer reading the air temperature just inside that dome hole is simply there as a chance to say "oops, that fire got away". Infrared readings of the stone and the inside dome are more relevant. As others say, an older fire that burned too hot but is now calming down is easier to work with (like so many of us).

We use a substantial proportion of home-ground whole wheat flour in our dough, and we're simply making food we want to eat, not reproducing an authentic standard. What I know is that when our KK gets too hot, the crust burns before the dough or toppings bake as we'd like.

Perhaps the best description of a pizza, besides thickness and topping weight, would be cooking time. One can guess oven conditions from cooking time. A Neapolitan pizza bakes 60 to 90 seconds, according to the standards reported in The Neapolitan Pizza book. Our pizza bakes 6 to 7 minutes.

Edited July 9, 2018 by Syzygies

[Syzygies]

4 hours ago, ckreef said:

Most pizza recipes are formulated for an oven and most ovens can get to 500* tops. You could push that to 550* in a kamado. You will have optimum results cooking at whatever the recommended temperature is. A lot of people new to pizza making on a grill just ignore the recipe and cook at too high a temperature. They think it is going to work better. This not only effects browning but also how the dough rises.

True, but we have access to authentic Neapolitan dough recipes, and many of us have worked out our dough recipes from scratch.

I sometimes bake pizza at 600 F, when I'm confident that the stone itself isn't much hotter, and I still watch very carefully. Whatever the recipe, it gets much harder to bake successfully above that temperature. One can mitigate the "fire from below" issues, but not completely. My neighbor has four different rigs, counting his wood-fired pizza oven. The Komodo Kamado is a Swiss Army knife. It does a great job with pizza but it is definitely not specialized to the task.

[Pequod]

Summarizing: Cooking is all about heat transfer. The temperature of the cooking medium is a rough guide to that, but not the entire story. Heat flux is also proportional to thermal conductivity of the interface between the thing imparting energy and the food absorbing it. For example, a baking steel has much higher conductivity than a baking stone, so at the same temp the steel will transfer more energy to your dough than a stone in the same amount of time, while the top is being cooked at the same rate with both. Place your hand in boiling water and you're immediately burned. Place your hand in a 212F oven and you're fine. Keep your hand in that oven long enough and you'll be burned.

When baking pizza on a steel I generally dial the temp down 50-100 degrees from baking on the KK baking stone. Similarly, the "right temp" for your WFO depends on the thermal conductivity of the floor tiles and the type of dough you're baking. 

[MacKenzie]

Syzygies "We use a substantial proportion of home-ground whole wheat flour in our dough, and we're simply making food we want to eat, not reproducing an authentic standard. "  

I am going back to my old favourite, the NY style from Serious Eats, now that I had a little side adventure. Then again I might do another side adventure, the Detroit Pizza.  

[Pequod]

6 minutes ago, MacKenzie said:

Syzygies "We use a substantial proportion of home-ground whole wheat flour in our dough, and we're simply making food we want to eat, not reproducing an authentic standard. "  

I am going back to my old favourite, the NY style from Serious Eats, now that I had a little side adventure. Then again I might do another side adventure, the Detroit Pizza.  

This is why I haven't pulled the trigger yet on a WFO. I can cook everything *I like* the most with my KK, with a preference toward Chicago thin and deep dish styles. A WFO would help me with Neapolitan...but do I *need* to perfect Neapolitan pizza? Jury is still out. Wife would say no...